Someone's comment on speeding/safe driving - would appreciate some advice on it.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    Someone's comment on speeding/safe driving - would appreciate some advice on it.

    Now, I know there are some very technically minded people on here, and on another forum I frequent occaisionally, I just read the following.

    "Really??? I've avoided accidents BECAUSE I was speeding... A flick of the wrist to the right or left gets you allot further out of the way at 140 than 60"

    This was in response to a comment regarding people's ability to avoid accidents at lower speeds as opposed to higher speeds. I think the person speaking is talking crap, as that flick of the wrist needs to happen 2-3 times faster. I don't want to start a new thread on speeding/etc. I'd like to shoot this guy down, and would like someone more technically minded to help me out.

    All the best, and thanks for the advice.

    Nick

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Things like this, 80 is often better than 60, 100 may be better... but 140 is a bit of an ask.

    Usually you will react quicker at the higher speed because you are required by the speed to concentrate more, anticipate more.

    But 140 is pretty fast, almost 90mph in the old money.

    Let's say that the avoidance required is an animal. Now you dodge to the left to avoid it... then the stupid animal does the same.

    At 140, you're there! No second chances. At 100 you might have a shot, at 80 your will probably be okay.

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Nick,

    Shouldn't be all that hard to blow holes in that argument, not that you'll convince him.
    Grab a calculater and work out how fay you travel in one second at 60 KPH, then do the same exercise at 140 and compare the difference; it'll frighten you!! eek!
    The only difference between your reaction speed at differeing speeds *may* be quicker depending on your reflexes, tiredness, concentration span etc so effectively the only difference I can see is that at 140 you'll hit it quicker and harder and give yourself no chance of stopping.
    The "flick of the wrist" caper is good in theory but has this character ever given a car a "flick of the wrist" at 140 KPH? 'coz he'll possibly spend the next 400 metres trying to regain control providing it's still on it's wheels.
    Methinks he may spend too much time "flickin' the wrist" on something other than the steering wheel. head_ban head_ban roll_lau

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    although i can understand (to a certain point) where this guy is coming from...his 140kmh logic is rather extreme....especially considering the fact that most people couldn t control the fishtail that would inevitably follow such wrist action...the reason i responded to this is that i recently had to use the wrist action (laugh u may)to avoid an old lady driving out of a petrol station (did not see me at all)(i missed her by a couple of inches)...i was driving an 85 28o se...its a big merc but it behaved as engineered at 70kmh....i can almost guarantee that a stock ea au vt would have lost the rear end at that speed and in the wet....140kmh comments and actions should be reserved for well set up cars and good (bloody good) drivers...so it might be better to avoid argueing with this guy...commentary like that should not be promoted nor prolonged...

    cheers
    dino

    ps...i remember...driving my mx6 with 4 wheel steer...on my first day with the car...i gave the steering a quick twist on the freeway to avoid traffic built up in left lane...if i hadn t reacted quickly enough to correct...i would have gone across the three lanes of the freeway (and possibly half the state of victoria)in a tenth of a second...scared the pants of me ...but i learned quickly not to do it again...

    cheers
    dino

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    flick of the wrist

    always remember 3 flicks and your out
    not even the likes of V8 touring car drivers can recover a car beyond the 3rd flick
    one you have a chance
    two you are pushing
    three your out of there normally backwards or sideways into whatever is standing in the way
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  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I can vouch that the "flick of the wrist" on a GT-R 4WD/4WS isn't the greatest of party tricks particularly if there's a lamp post in the vicinity. whistle cry mallet mallet

    Alan S wink
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    A panic flick of the wrist, is dangerous at any speed. The calculated figures show the risk of losing it, increases exponentially with speed.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Alan S:
    The "flick of the wrist" caper is good in theory but has this character ever given a car a "flick of the wrist" at 140 KPH? 'coz he'll possibly spend the next 400 metres trying to regain control providing it's still on it's wheels.Alan S
    My bet is that rather spedning the next 400 metres trying to regain control he'll spend 1 second contemplating the stupidity of his action before the tree stops him from contemplating anything more, ever!

    Firstly the arc over which he will have to turn will be much, much longer at that speed. If he doesn't believe you ask him why F1 cars at Monaco go so slow through the tight corners!

    Secondly of course anything he hits he will hit much, much faster and he will be much more likely to completely lose control because his tyres will reach the limits of adhesion much more quickly.

    Thirdly he will travel much further in the course of the "flick" than he would if he is travelling slower. It will be a lot further before the car actually starts to move off the line that it was originally travelling along. Inertia will keep it moving in the direction it was already travelling in.

    If you want to prove the matter to him set up some witches hats and get him to try them at 40kph , 60 kph and 80 kph. Then ask him if he's like to try them at 140!

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 11 September 2003, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  9. #9
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    My Econometrics tutor works for the monash accident research centre.

    As we had been discussing how to measure the confidence level of causes of events, I asked him how sure they were that speed caused accidents after the tute.

    He told me they had a "very high" confidence level that speed was THE major factor that caused fatal accidents.

    However, he did agree that he thought the 3km/h tolerance was probably a revenue raising measure.

    He also said that contrary to popular belief, police officers are NOT encouraged to find lots of people speeding, as this makes for poor crime statistics, and makes it look like road safety messages are failing.

    But there is pressure on them to raise lots of money... a predicament to be sure. Thus they try to catch people in places were they are likely to be doing significantly more than the posted speed limit.

    I'd be interested to hear what mistareno has to say about all this.
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  10. #10
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    I believe that to a certain degree, if you are travelling faster you will be able to avoid certian types of collisions because you can get out of the way faster. For example if you are crossing the road with a car coming at you, if you walk, you probably will get hit, if you run, more likely you will clear the road before the car arrives.

    HOWEVER, having said that, the real physics still exists, as many previous posts have demonstrated, in most cases, going faster simply means higher probability of losing control, insufficient reaction time, etc.

    So, I suppose the argument could be on a case by case basis, but then again I think he was just lucky.

    Avoiding collision (while maintaininf full control) at high speed is a skill, definetly not a "flick of wrist". Like race car drivers would be better at it then normal people, but even they loose control sometimes at races. This just proves that if you go too fast for the situation, you just can't get out it.

    I bet he doesn't realise how easy it is for a car to loose control, if he insist on flicking his wrist, that's his choice, just don't take anybody else down with him.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    rc968:
    Like race car drivers would be better at it then normal people, but even they loose control sometimes at races. .
    Interestingly I saw some figures in a study a while back that indicated that racing drivers actually have a much HIGHER than normal incidence of road accidents / injuries etc during "normal" non race driving than "regular" road users. Can't remember where, I'll have to dig around unless anyone else has seen them too.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  12. #12
    Zen
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    Doing the maths on it...

    60km/h is 60,000metres/3,600 seconds which is 16.6 m/sec.
    140km/h is 140,000metres/3,600 seconds which is 38.8 m/sec.

    Now if, for arguments sake, human reaction time is 0.3 of a sec then we're talking a 5m distance for 60km/h versus a 11.6m distance for 140km/h that is lost due to reaction. That's nearly 7 metres that is lost straight off the bat, add 2.2 metres for every 0.1 sec extra to reaction time.

    Other variables to take into consideration would be dependent on the actions (acceleration/deceleration) of the driver during the avoidance maneuver but no matter what the driver does, the fact still remains that the driver is 7 metres closer to the object the driver is (supposedly) trying to avoid.

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    A flick of the wrist to the right or left gets you allot further out of the way at 140 than 60"

    I guess all he is really saying is agility increases with speed.

    Despite all the the maths and everthing Zen. There is a quote that I have from someone? That says. A superior driver uses superior judgement to avoid using his superior skill.

    It interesting to know how close to the limit things could potentially be pushed. However, I guess I learnt from being a courier. Dont risk having to go down the "on the limit" path.

    It is observation of mine that those who put the hammer down. Seem to be the ones that get stuck in the traffic. Instead of reading the traffic carefully to get through it.

    <small>[ 11 September 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: PugMad ]</small>

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    PugMad:
    A flick of the wrist to the right or left gets you allot further out of the way at 140 than 60"

    I guess all he is really saying is agility increases with speed. it.
    But that isn't really the case, PugMad. Think about the path taken by the vehicle in just about every high speed smash that you have ever seen in an F1 race.

    Think about what happens when a car takes a bend too fast. Take a look at the skidmarks in such situations, and the place where the vehicle ends up.

    In almost all cases you will see that it continues travelling in more or less a straight line.

    The higher the velocity the greater the inertia, the greater the inertia the greater the tendancy to continue on the same path.

    Try it yourself. Find a nice salt lake and set up two cones 10 metres apart. Now try swerving when you reach the first cone to avoid the second one by as much as you can. You'll find that your wheel tracks come much closer to the second cone if you are travelling at 100 kph than if you are travelling at 60. (You can actually try the same thing walking and running if you don't have a salt lake handy - You see the same physical principles applied in any game of football , by the way) wink

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 11 September 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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    Put it to you another way. No movement no agillity. If the car is not moving and you turn the wheel nothing happens! If however you start to move, you need to make a large movement at the wheel to get a small change in position. The faster you move less input required to the wheel to get the same change in position.

    When say agility I do not mean traction. Which in the case of a motor car Is what limits agillity.

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    PugMad:
    Put it to you another way. No movement no agillity. If the car is not moving and you turn the wheel nothing happens! If however you start to move, you need to make a large movement at the wheel to get a small change in position. The faster you move less input required to the wheel to get the same change in position.

    When say agility I do not mean traction. Which in the case of a motor car Is what limits agillity.
    try that next time a kid jumps out in front of you or someone opens a car door in front of you and see where you end up
    i'd say not unscathed
    motion carries intertia and the more speed attached to that motion the more you need adhesion to aviod what you are going to hit than you will need at a slower speed
    i wonder why ther eare 40km/h signs near schools ????
    maybe they should try 140km/h signs so people can better avoid hitting other people and just train people to "flick the wrist"
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    PugMad:
    Put it to you another way. No movement no agillity. If the car is not moving and you turn the wheel nothing happens! If however you start to move, you need to make a large movement at the wheel to get a small change in position. The faster you move less input required to the wheel to get the same change in position.

    When say agility I do not mean traction. Which in the case of a motor car Is what limits agillity.
    As speed increase the weight on the steering wheel decreases (largely because adhesion decreases), but that doesn't mean that you turn the wheel less to make the car itself travel in a particular arc.

    Try doing circles in your car on full lock at various speeds. See which are smallest. At low speeds there won't be much difference. As speeds increase you'll find that the arc increases (due to slippage and tyre distortion etc which set in well before your tyres completely "let go"). Remember its the smallest arc that gives you the greatest deviation from an object that you are approaching.

    Once you get into complete "adhesion loss" (ie a skid) of course the vehicle continues to travel in the direction it was moving in at the point when the skid started, unless you can regain traction again. The recovery of adhesion will only occur when the velocity of the vehicle has decreased sufficiently to allow recovery.

    Yes, there are situations where, for example, a rear wheel skid , followed by sufficient speed loss , will allow you to travel in a new direction after transcribing a tighter arc than you could if the skid hadn't happened, but the ability to change the actual direction of motion of the vehicle in this situation will be dependent on you having wiped off enough speed to allow traction to be regained. (Rally driving, or driving fast on dirt roads generally involves playing around with this point of adhesion and using it to your own advantage - driving on the point of adhesion loss) Its a very different thing though from the "flick of a wheel to drive around something.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 11 September 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    agreed there Rod

    a simple experiment for people to try is when going through a corner slightly back off without moving the wheel and see where your car goes
    it will pull in tighter guaranteed
    put your foot down again gently without moving the wheel and watch the car move away from the corner
    this is something that i thought everyone knew
    or maybe it is something that all should be aware of
    hitting the brakes though hard enough mid corner will upset the whole apple cart though so be wary
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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Pug rambo and Rod your both talking about manuveablity not agilty! Agility is defined as the ability to be quick nimble which is what pugmad on about. Manuverablity is simply how and all the parrametres. Like that it takes X distance to stop go around and the like.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    Pug rambo and Rod your both talking about manuveablity not agilty! Agility is defined as the ability to be quick nimble which is what pugmad on about. Manuverablity is simply how and all the parrametres. Like that it takes X distance to stop go around and the like.
    No AlsPug

    We are just talking about the likelihood of someone succeeding in dancing around an unexpected obstacle that appears in front of them. Simply put, the faster you are travelling (and the heavier you are) the less your chances - silly claims like that made by Nick's mate in the original post notwithstanding!

    Cheers

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  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    my brother in law who is one very good bike rider was on his way back home once when living in mudgee found a roo in the middle of the road
    he was travelling at around 100-120 in a commodore ute with good wide rubber and he has very good reflexes
    the road was wide and uphill where he got it and he wiped off speed before he got the roo but still ended up on the other side of the road on his lid !!!
    if he was going a bit slower knowing the roos plagued the area where he was his chances of either
    a) hitting or
    b) staying upright
    he may have missed the roo or if hitting it may have stayed upright

    there was another time where many years before hand he hit a parked car at the side of the road
    he was speeding and a car pulled out of a side street
    he flicked the car to miss the other one but ended up buried into the parked car
    if he was going slower he would have either not bieng there at the time the car pulled out or would have been going slow enough to have kept his car under control enough to have avoided hitting the parked car

    now tell me that a "flick at speed" is safe
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I knew some of this, after playing computer games.

    Doing things that I would never do in my own car

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  23. #23
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    Anyone noticed that the tendency for oversteer and understeer increases with speed? <img src="http://www.vvspy.com/w-agora4/icons/icon41.gif" alt=" - " />

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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Rod Hagen:
    Try it yourself. Find a nice salt lake and set up two cones 10 metres apart.
    Rod, know any good, empty salt lakes nearby where I can test this theory out? <img src="http://filestore.redlineau.com/filestore/missy%20d/drivin.gif" alt=" - " />

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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Depends on where the rain has been falling recently, Richard!

    Kow Swamp (up near Cohuna) gets pretty close at times. The way things are going most of northern Victoria will qualify soon, unless they stop doing stupid things like encouraging rice farming on the NSW tributaries of the Murray! wink )Lake Buchanan (out in the Wimmera) , Lake Tyrell (near 'Sealake" - remind me to tell you about Stanbridge's wonderful 19th century account of Aboriginal astromony from Lake Tyrell one day wink ), Various other "lakes" out around the Big Desert and Little Desert.

    Hey, getting there is half the fun! Lakes Torrens, gardiner and Eyre give you plenty of room for a run up!

    Cheers

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