Camira bits attn Damien
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Camira bits attn Damien

    Checked out your site interesting car mods your carry out. I was curious about the bits from the camira. I read you got fuel rails and the like did you get the ecu loom and sensors and what sort of price did you end up looking at?? I have only heard 300 bucks bandied about! did you get the lot for fifty. eek! Were did you get pipe bends for the extractors? How are they coming along?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Hi there, the Camira bits came from Westernport Wreckers Hastings ( a bit of a drive ) at the time it was all you can carry for $50, i got a manifold & all sensors, 2 fuel rails & injectors 2 x ECU's and one loom also the airflow meter all from 1986 1800 Camira.
    The pipe mandrell bends came from Daalder exhausts cnr Princes Hwy & Sth Gippsland Hwy Dandenong.

    Ps They has 6 of this model Camira when i was there on the 1st/12

    Pss. when i got the Camira bits it was all you can carry Saturdays only, it's now $75 all you can carry 7 days a week.
    I recently went with a mate, he had a spud bag (50kg pototo bag) with shoulder strap made from old seat belt, we spent several hrs stripping, when done i carried the jack & tools he carried all the loot.
    Best i've seen was a $50 all you can carry in Dandenong several years ago. Six bikie types, stripped 2 Nissan L20 motors from 2 cars by hand, 4 holding each motor as the other 2 undid bolts etc. Then just lifted them out & carried them to the office where there were 2 lines 3 metres apart the goods had to be carried 3 metres they produced an iron road workers pinch bar & attached chains to each motor & the biggest of the 6 blokes lifted both engines at once on his shoulders and struggled the 3 metres, the guy on the desk was amazed and said jeeeeesus if ya that eager ya can have em.

    Another trick i've seen if you need a lot of bits. A mate of my sons goes with a friend and the first thing is pick a bonnet any will do then pile every thing you want on it, then its all 2 can carry for $150 they collect Head and Tail light assemblies & then do swap meets & sunday markets & do quite nicely thankyou.

    <small>[ 09 December 2002, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Amuseing and Excellent thank you!

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Long term especially, I think this will be the way to go with XN2 engines.

    I expect that $50 will be top dollars as more and more Camiras hit the scrap heap.

    Any chance of a total list of all bits that will be needed?

  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Something of interest may be that I noticed that the Triumph 2500 PI has six throttle bodies mounted in groups of two, a bit like side draught weber throttle bodies, only the throats are closer together. They may be handy for high performance EFI conversions.

    Dave
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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Any idea of wreckers in Sydney or Newcastle that have this type of deal ($75 for all you can carry)?

    I figure that P'N'P at blacktown probably have a high enough turn over not to need this type of deal?

    I know a few of my friends who would be really interested in finding bits that cheap.

    Thanks for any help

    Jono
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Ray,
    l Manifold comp with throttle body & injectors
    1 Air box with air flow meter with associated hosings.
    All accessable sensors basically any thing with wire attached.
    The ECU is located behind glove box under dash take it plus the other box i think it's the instrument control box, unlpug the 2 connectors & push loom thru firewall & take the4 lot.
    The JD Camira Manual gives a good schematic diagram.
    Most of the Holden wreckers locally are asking $350 for all the bits
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

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    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Apparently Astras of that era and like are simarly price. In fact come to think of it even the late model geminis would still have stuff going cheap!

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    AlsPug504,
    True the Gemini & astra may be cheaper, however the JD '86 Camira has the particular LE Jetronic Injection system with the airflow meter. This system is ideal as the engine Air/fuel mix is achieved by reworking the spring in the metering box. The other systems use a MAP sensor and to alter the mix etc. The ECU needs to be re-chipped
    i'm not really up on the differences, just going on what i was told by my mate Albert the Dyno Wizard.
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    crosspug,
    Sorry mate no idea in the Sydney scene however i found this one on the back page of the Trading post im Melbourne worth a try if you have a similar publication in NSW.
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Damien Gardner:
    .....This system is ideal as the engine Air/fuel mix is achieved by reworking the spring in the metering box. The other systems use a MAP sensor and to alter the mix etc. The ECU needs to be re-chipped.....
    Isn't the other more accurate?

    Once you've done the dyno testing and made the chip, surely it's a better deal?

    So what other cars have these systems?

  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I prefer the MAP sensor system for it's simplicity and cleaner inlet air flow, but if you're adapting a production system without having to touch the ECU, that Camira flow meter system sounds like the way to go.

    I wonder how it would go with the 65mm XF Ford throttle body.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  13. #13
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    Damien Gardner:
    Ray,
    All accessable sensors basically any thing with wire attached.
    From memory LE Jetronic has a seperate engine speed sensor and TDC sensor (usually on the same housing) on the flywheel, intake air temp sensor on the air filter box pushed into a rubber grommet, coolant temperature sensor (looks like a temp gauge sender unit) and of course the lambda sensor on the exhaust manifold.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    This system is LE-2 Jetronic

    The sensors listed in the schematics are
    Oil temp,
    Oil pressure,
    Manifold temp switch,
    Water temp switch,
    Air flow meter,
    Air temp switch,
    Throttle position switch,
    Aux air valve switch,
    Control relay,
    Aux air valve solenoid,
    The drawings & schematics show no lambda sensor or engine speed sensor.
    EAI (electronic advance unit) and ECU (electronic control unit.
    dance dance dance
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Electronic advance unit?

    Does this mean we do away with the distributor?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    It uses a Bosch electronic Dizzy (hall effect). I have put the electronics in to the Bosch R16TS Dizzy, I had to get a little creative with my lathe making the adaptor for the chopper plate but it seems fine, it has no mechanical advance, i assume the job is done by the EAU. & i've removed the vacuum advance,

    <small>[ 13 December 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    The only requirement when collecting all the Camira bits, that i forgot to mention, is the high pressure fuel pump.
    Located above the rear axle on drivers side. A 10mm spanner, something to cut the rubber hoses and 2 or 3 mins & it's out.
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  18. #18
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    Damien in the Silicon Chip article they suggested that if you had a Bosch dizzy you could use an existing integrated rotor/chopper from an another 4 cylinder car. How did you work out the chopper size? I was wondering this when contemplating mine, as it's a Ducellier (and I was looking for an easy way out!).

    Stu


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Stuey,
    The electronics base plate is a perfect drop in fit in the Bosch/Renault Dizzy, i only had to drill 3 holes in the housing for attachment screws, i had to make a bush for the rotor/chopper & cross drilled & tapped for grub screws to attach to the dizzy shaft, loctite thread sealant will hold the grub screws against vibration. And i addapted the Camira 3 pin power/signal socket to the outer casing as well
    Not sure of the Ducellier dizzy's, though from memory they're physically smaller & i doubt the Camira's Bosch bits would fit.
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Some 504s, of course, had Bosch distributors.

    I've seen a couple converted to electronic, too.

  21. #21
    Gus
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    Fellow Frogger! Gus's Avatar
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    The JD '86 Camira has the particular LE Jetronic Injection system with the airflow meter. This system is ideal as the engine Air/fuel mix is achieved by reworking the spring in the metering box. The other systems use a MAP sensor and to alter the mix etc. The ECU needs to be re-chipped
    Very interesting but I don't think it's quite this simple.

    Unlike a pure mechanical system (K-Jet, Kugelfischer, etc) the LE-Jet doesn't just run on airflow.

    It also relies on the rpm of the engine to give it information about volumetric efficiency.

    Admittedly, though, injector dwell (at least in the L-Jetronic) is largely governed by the AFM.

    Look here: <a href="http://demo.cs.brandeis.edu/postscript.dump/Ltronic/mods.html" target="_blank">http://demo.cs.brandeis.edu/postscript.dump/Ltronic/mods.html</a> for a good description of how an L-Jetronic calculates injector opening times. The simplest summary can be obtained from the final graph.

    A second page can be found here <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~RoverSD_1/airflow.html" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~RoverSD_1/airflow.html</a> and describes Rover L-Jetronic.

    I imagine the Camira system would make a good choice, although AFAIK it would never work as well as something programmed for the engine it's on. If it doesn't use a lookup table (the L-Jet doesn't) then things become harder as you can't just re-chip the ECU, you have to solder on and off resistors as described on the above page.

    (LE-Jetronic may be very different to L-Jet, but I imagine the two are almost identical.)

    With something like a Megasquirt,
    <a href="http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html," target="_blank">http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html,</a> you can do all the programming yourself by trial and error.

    You also have the advantage of lambda control, giving you much more accurate fuelling when cruising.

    <small>[ 16 December 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Gus ]</small>

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Gus,
    Your point is noted, however my application is for a low cost big grunt, non road going engine, Fuel economy is not a concern as i expect the EFI setup will give better than the 100L/100km that i get from the Car now, with the 350 Holley fed thru the Supercharger.
    I have down loaded The LE Jetronic Data from several sites including Bosch, including one thats gives a good rundown on fitting it to a non-original engine. A search for "DIY LE Jetronic" provides hours of reading.
    The engine Rev's are taken from the negative coil as a normal Tacho does, another point is the Camira is an 1800cc so the fitting to a modified 1600cc will most likely require very little fiddling with the airflow meter, the Throttle position sensor on the throttle body works with the system as well, to determine the correct air/fuel mix for given eng speed .
    The L-Jetronic is very different to the later LE-Jetronic and the data from one is irelevant to the other. I have researched this project very thoroughly "for my application" and when i have questions, i ring my Mate the specialist Race engine builder & Dyno Whizz.

    <small>[ 16 December 2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Damien Gardner:
    .....however my application is for a low cost big grunt, non road going engine, Fuel economy is not a concern as i expect the EFI setup will give better than the 100L/100km that i get from the Car now, with the 350 Holley fed thru the Supercharger.....
    That's right thirsty there... or do you mean 10L/100km?

    As far as I'm concerned, fuel economy is the biggest reason for doing any of this... I want the power is important for sure, but with the miles I do, I have to improve the fuel consumption.

  24. #24
    Gus
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    Apologies if it seemed I was lecturing you, Damien.

    You know more about it than me (and your "dyno wizard" should know even more.)

    low cost big grunt
    Would you consider fitting a Megasquirt, or buying a cheap, older, programmable EFI (see my post <a href="http://board.performanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67136879">here</a>) from a board like performanceforums? You could fit the ECU to the Camira sensors and injectors (bar the AFM cos most use a MAP sensor), pay $300 or less for an ex-govvy laptop capable of tuning it all, a few hundred more for a narrow-band oxygen sensor if you wanted it (possibly not in your case.)

    Megasquirt will cost you in the vicinity of $330, all parts delivered to your door ('course, you have to build the beast!) I think that includes a nb o2 sensor, too.

    The L-Jetronic is very different to the later LE-Jetronic and the data from one is irrelevant to the other.
    This sounds plausible, but the difference must be in the ECU cos most of the other components are identical. I would be very interested to know what that difference is. The ECU can't be "smart" cos it has no data from which to learn. But it could use a set lookup tables, rather than the L-Jet with it's old-school componentry. This means with the right gear those tables could be changed.

    I should have peered in my LE-2 before I installed it under my dashboard. .

    As far as I'm concerned, fuel economy is the biggest reason for doing any of this... I want the power is important for sure, but with the miles I do, I have to improve the fuel consumption.
    Well, these relatively primitive EFIs aren't particularly fuel efficient, but you'll no doubt do better than many other fuelling methods.

    Any system with an o2 sensor should be able to maintain a near-perfect stochiometric ratio at cruise, which will give close to optimum fuel economy.

    Anyhow, *Looks at clock* *Remembers things he was actually meant to do today*

    <small>[ 17 December 2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Gus ]</small>

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Ray
    100L/100k was correct, worked from 8 Laps of 750m Hillclimb plus staging & return to pits uses about 8L of Avgas therefore approx 1k/litre.

    Gus,
    I may be interested in the megasquirt ECU, building is no problem,I hold an Associate Dip in Electronics (Digital),I have built & used several of the Jaycar Transistor ign & Programmable units in fact my R10 is currently fitted with them,You mention the Vacuum advance in the Prog unit this is disconnected from the distributor & the dizzy plate locked down and a micro switch fitted to the Vac/servo and the electronics then takes over the Vac/ Retard function.
    I still have the notes for both, if you or any of your mates from the other forum would like a copy i'll scan & email them to you.
    My reasoning behind the EFI is Hp mainly plus i'm hoping to run Premium ULP instead of avgas. the avgas costs $1.50/litre and CAMS is about to introduce a license that will be needed to buy it, mooted to cost $40 per/annum.

    I've found an RX7 intercooler for $250 this shound bring the inlet charge temp down enough when linked with the EFI to reduce the preignition
    And the No 1 reason,
    Because I DID IT MYSELF.
    With the only jobs out sourced being Plasma cutting of manifold flanges & the wide rims fitted to the R18 centres.

    dance dance renault_ renault_
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

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