$125 for 4kmh over the limit
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    $125 for 4kmh over the limit

    Speed kills the coppers say in Victoria. NO, crashing into things is what kills. Underinflated tyres blowing out kills. Failing to negotiate a bend kills. Falling asleep kills (only while you are driving). Four kmh; this is getting ridiculous! In 23 years of driving I still haven't been pinged for speeding. I speed ALL THE TIME, when it is safe. However my wife ensures that as a couple we are an average couple in this regard. This road legislation here is plain wrong.

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    After smashing the 306(ramming from the rear) the other 306 (same), the Mercedes(hitting the house) and the Saab (while she was a sitting duck waiting for an Indonesian student to cross 5 lanes, a median strip and 5 lanes to hit her), and forgetting the 121, cos we werent married, I just paid to fix it; and getting 6 or 7 speeding fines my wife deserves a 504 DIESEL. Dont think that would stop the parking fines though. Didn't make a MINI diesel did they?
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  2. #2
    rek
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    "Thanks for playing the Bracks Bend-me-over Lottery!" moon

    That's unfortunately what "road safety" has come to in this state -- a bloody lottery. It's an absolute disgrace, I completely agree. What on earth are they thinking, we're safer keeping our eyes peeled for speed cameras and checking +/- 3kph on our speedos ("and yeah, just hope they're super-accurate or else we'll ping you anyway"), than actually looking at what's happening on the road?

    The worst thing about it is, the government has probably vindicated their "road safety campaign" in their minds, in light of the recent election result. (Sorry for the politics guys)

    Luckily my numbers haven't come up yet.
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  3. #3
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    After several speed camera fines a friend of mine has removed his front number plate, he feels now he is only risking being picked up by a real police/car/bike/person and may cop a small fine or warning.

    Of course I would never endorse this tactic wink

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  4. #4
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    It's all well and good to whinge about speed limits, the cops, speed cameras etc, but what is anybody DOING about it? I'll tell you. Most Australians are lazy and are willing to accept whatever the gov't want to burden them with and happily go along with it like a mob of bloody sheep. It's the old story of the tail wagging the dog. We are the ones in ultimate command of our laws and way of life so we are the ones responsible to change things, not the gov't, not the left wing do-gooders, not the media, but us. We have only ourselves to blame for the way things are, nobody else.
    I'm tired of the whining, get of you B.S. and DO something about it. whip

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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    I find that by keeping my speed within the speed limit I receive no fines.

    I assume a degree of inaccuracy in my speedometer, and compensate appropriately.

    I can think of a number of roads where the speed limit seems low, but I can think of an similar number where the speed limit seems to be set too high (ie. city centre, some narrow suburban streets)

    To me, it all balances out in the end. Sometimes it's frustrating, but then again, how much time are you going to save with an extra 5km/h or so over a 30 minute journey including traffic lights?

    I'm all for improved driver training, and a subsequent raising of limits on open roads, but with the system we've got now (and some of the incredibly bad driving I've observed) I think we have no choice but to limit speeds. Lowest common denominator, that sort of thing...
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  6. #6
    Gus
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    Europa, I agree with most of what you've said.

    But I still don't see how removing the 10% tolerance on speed (in Vic) is anything but a revenue raising exercise or, like rek said, a lottery.

    Especially when you consider that until recently the ADRs (Australian Design Regulations) allowed for up to 10% inaccuracy in speedos mallet .

    If those caught speeding were forced to do community service, take a driving course (esp. if it was at government cost), or something similar; then maybe we could believe the Government line.

    When all they do is pay money into government coffers, and the government spends their money on more cameras and then places them (in the ACT at least) on stretches of road where there are never accidents but people are inclined to speed, you have to ask...

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Gus:
    But I still don't see how removing the 10% tolerance on speed (in Vic) is anything but a revenue raising exercise or, like rek said, a lottery.
    Yes it sucks. I think Victoria is now experiencing the same sort of draconian speed policing that SA was doing about 10 years ago.

    When I moved to Melbourne for a couple of years in the late 90's, I was amazed to find I could travel at speeds well above the posted limit (with the rest of the traffic!) - and not have to be looking at every parked car or worry about being caught for speeding at all!

    In SA, they've got us well and truly neutered, you just can't risk it anymore, so everyone just drives slower. I think this is one of the reasons why interstate visitors have often commented that everyone seems to drive so slowly over here - it's like Pavlovs Dogs - speed, lose money - speed, lose money - then no more speeding.

    Having said that, I notice that the road toll is really not lowering - I think the "speed" argument is really coming to an end - time now for a improved licencing scheme!

    Of course, this is unlikely because it costs money (rather than makes money) and will not be a vote winner.

    The "car is an appliance" community will reject any politician who tries to charge them more money or makes it harder to be able to drive 500 Metres to the McDonalds drivethrough in their unwashed, unserviced, uncared for Hyundai Excel...
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    The same governments that enforce these limits to a daft degree are the governments that support the local car manufacturers. The manufacturers who produce the great Aussie car with 4 litre 200+ bhp engines.
    If the majority of citizens think that a law is wrong, then the law is wrong. We just gotta do something about it. Speed limits are ok the way they are, except on the mega-highways which are way too low. It is however the enforcement of them which is distasteful in the extreme. The only way to change things is to write to your local M.P.
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Warwick2:
    The only way to change things is to write to your local M.P.
    I dunno, I think some sort of coordinated organisation is required? Maybe we can kick the various motoring organisations along (ie. RAA, RACV etc.)

    Then again, I've always seen them as pretty ineffectual, they wring their hands about something every now and then, but no-one seems to take any notice.

    I'd be happy to see the funds collected returned to the transport infrastucture system, and the details published prominently...
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  10. #10
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    Yes, you must be well organised and well funded otherwise you just end up pissing into a very strong breeze.
    Take a look at what the sporting shooters of this country did. If it wasn't for the actions of this small but well funded minority, private firearm ownership in this country would have ceased back in 1996 (which some people thought would actually have been a good thing). However, by being organised, motivated and being prepared to throw money at issues that they thought important they managed to hold onto their rights, albeit in a modified form, whether you agreed with their issues or not.
    There are MANY more pissed off road users than gun owners in this country.....it should be relatively easy to get things changed...
    Yeah right. Baaa baaa. mallet

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Gus:
    Europa, I agree with most of what you've said.

    But I still don't see how removing the 10% tolerance on speed (in Vic) is anything but a revenue raising exercise or, like rek said, a lottery.

    Especially when you consider that until recently the ADRs (Australian Design Regulations) allowed for up to 10% inaccuracy in speedos mallet .
    .
    I'm always intrigued by the "10% inaccuracy" and "eyes on the speedo" arguments.

    People being what they are, if they are told there is a 10% "tolerance" on the speed limit, most will , of course, actually drive at a speed 10% over the limit. If their speedo happens to be "under-reading" by the ADR 10% they will then actually being doing 21% over the actual limit (say 121 in a 100kph zone).

    However I've been driving for 33 years, in a host of different vehicles, and I've only ever been in one that actually had an "under-reading" speedo (My DSpecial). In many parts of the world under-reading speedos have been banned for years. I doubt that many manufacturers actually build specially inaccurate ones, just to satisfy the Australian market ;-)

    I suspect, actually that many people in Victoria will only have bothered to check their speedos since the the 4% talk started. In many cases they will probably actually now start travelling a few k's faster than they were before, to compensate for their "over-readers". Maybe we'll actually see vehicles generally travelling at more similar speeds accordingly, with less conflict.

    As to the 'eyes on the speedo" stuff, why do you need to look more often to decide whether you are going 4 k over rather than 10 k over? Any decent driver, with any experience, knows what speed they are travelling from "feel" and 'sound " of the car anyway. Less experienced drivers probably do need to keep an eye on their speedo anyway until they get the feel of it.

    Finally there isn't really any argument about the impact of speed when driving in suburban areas especially. A 5 k difference really does make a far greater difference to speed at impact in all those car shunts and car pedestrain collisions on suburban streets.

    Yes, out on an empty , open road, it might be a different story, but most driving isn't like that.

    Mind you , speed would matter less if more people learned to drive with a decent "envelope" around their car. I've been up and down the Hume from Melbourne to Sydney half a dozen times in the last few weeks and I'm staggered by the number of people who sat the same distance behind the car in front of them at 110 or 120kph that they use 60kph. Given that most of them drive way too close at 60 the upshot was pretty frightening, especially when they try to nose out past a semi on the remaining single lane stretches.

    Then there are the other numbskulls who like to sit in your blindspot for mile after mile until you forget they are there of course.

    And finally, of course, there are all those guys with small appendages and large "fog lights" pointed in your eyes that seem to have them wired directly to the ignitoin circuit..........way more irritating and distracting than simply leaving your headlights on.

    Lets face it, however good a driver you are (and most of us probably aren't as good as we think we are) , there are always nongs out there who have the potential to take you out. Personally I'd prefer to sacrifice a little speed and freedom to keep them from [email protected]#ing up my car, me or my family.

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  12. #12
    rek
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    I am not whinging about the existence of speed limits or speed cameras (I can see as well as anyone that speed limit enforcement is necessary, both to minimise unreasonable speed differentials between cars, and pedestrian safety etc. in urban areas.) I just think the tighter tolerance is unreasonably strict and smacks of revenue raising.

    The road rules and ADRs are written into law, and everyone has to abide by their constraints .. yes, even policing procedures. IMO, assumptions such as "she'll be right mate, usually speedos are more accurate than the ADRs allow anyway" have no place in legislation, and reflect poorly on the decision-makers. You simply can't, for example, defect a car citing ADRs as the reason, and then ignore those same regulations half an hour later when issuing a speeding ticket!

    Does anyone know if anyone in such a situation (pinged for between 3kph and 10% of the limit) has contested the fine citing the ADRs ("beyond reasonable doubt" and all that)? I wonder if they would simply waive the ticket and not allow a precedent to be set, allowing them to continue collecting from the sheeple too lazy to do anything about it.

    How long did it take before they were forced to revoke all those NSW speeding fines, issued due to the inaccurate speedos in police WRXs?

    (Personally though, I'm not a big fan of the "camouflage" camera procedures used in Victoria. If I were organising it, I would use a procedure similar to red light cameras .. put a "ROAD ACCIDENT BLACK SPOT - SPEED CAMERA IN AREA" signpost and camera-box-on-a-pole housing at a number of black spots, and have a pool of cameras which get rotated from site to site. But I guess that's not as lucrative..)

    Unfortunately I can't discern 104km/h vs. 100km/h very easily without looking at the speedo.. in 6th, there is little difference in RPM to hear or feel. I try to drive on or about 100kph, but I've sometimes noticed that I have drifted as slow as 95kph, or as high as 105, which is all it takes to give me a $125 ticket nowadays.

    I don't think it's news to any of us that a more viable long-term solution would be better driver education/awareness (the things like tailgating, foglight ******s, phones & inattention at the wheel, etc. that Rod mentions.) But yeah, that's not going to impress Joe Average voter (and the state Consolidated Revenue figures) than a few catchphrases (and inevitably cameras) will.

    e.g. when I cycle to/from work on a wet day, I'm amazed at how many people simply do not have accelerator control. It's not just your "hero" in the HSV Ute, I've seen all kinds of cars spin the wheels - and keep spinning for a number of seconds, completely oblivious to, or unable to do anything about it - this happens many times in the course of a 40 minute ride through the suburbs!

    Anyway, it's Friday afternoon at work, and what better thing to do than waste a bit of time conveying a message through MS Paint: clown

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  13. #13
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    Following distance is very, very important, when dealing with speed.

    All you have to do is a drivers course, stop the car from whatever speed the instructor says stop, and you'll find, thanks to your good mate "reaction time" - you'd have hit the car in front, had you driven at the normal distance.

    Great brakes help, but reaction time will hurt you - even if you think you're a great driver.

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    Personally I'd prefer to sacrifice a little speed and freedom to keep them from [email protected]#ing up my car, me or my family.
    That is the problem, the revenue raisers will happily take you up on this and before you know it eveyone be driving a Korean econo box to work at 15kmph because it is clearly too dangerous to do otherwise. We're heading that way right now. Is this what peolpe really want?

    Or in the immortal words of Ben Franklin: They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    End of rant dead
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Since some of you people from melbourne seem to be copping speed fines I might highlight were some of these new hidden (so called) speed cameras are some of you might know of these however for those who are ignorant. And further more add some other tricks now being used.

    Firstly there are speed cameras at

    the best known is on the Se freeway on the back of the electronic signboard gantry on top of the bridge over punt rd See melway 2G F12 there are 3 cameras in domain tunnel and 4 in the burnley tunnel.

    There is also a camera on the western ring road both sides before and after boundry rd west sunshine see melway 40 C7 go to geelong fwy from the ring road (head on) is easy to spot on top othe sign board the other side is behind the sign (Tail on) board 4 boundry rd

    There is one on the northern part of the western ring rd. West bound it is mounted on the widford rd bridge. (tail on) The east bound is mounted on the pascoe vale rd bridge (Head on)

    Here are some that not recognised. On the inbound side Dandenong rd corner orrong rd is a red light camera that also is a speed camera. irrespective of the light color 58 J9

    There is another on Alexander prd cnr smith street going onto the eastern fwy. melways 2C D7

    Lastly all the above use time over distance! no laser or radar!!! you will see three lines across the rd spaced about 1.5 metres apart they detect your vehical as it passes over them. the same devices also sit in the rd at traffic lights usually in a box shape they trigger the red light camera and know speed for orrong rd..

    I got detection detail info from the FOI office of the police so you can be fairly sure it is accurate.

    As for revenue raising they whack cameras on roads which have high traffic volumes (se freeway) and all the others round melbourne. which according to the party responsibly ie the TAC only have had 7 fatalities a year on these freeways. in 1998 they earned 45 million from speeding fines alone not exactly pocket money. It dont even bare thinking that that figure has shot through the roof since the intro of the new saftey camera. what the f#$%^ is safe about that.

    <small>[ 06 December 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    now then we live in a town where we are limited to 50km/h but there were still 4 accidents just the other day
    we also have speed signs telling us as we drive towards them what speed we are doing
    i was bang on 50 and the read out told me i was going 47
    but it's amazing how many "P" platers (no offense to any please) seem to overtake and drift around the corners
    why is so that if you ride a bike you are only allowed certain bikes but a car you can drive whatever you like
    anyway getting off topic a little there
    talking about lights in daytime
    the "fog" lights on pugs aren't aimed high or that bright in daylight and as i have said in other threads i have always used them and on cars where i haven't had them i normaly have my parkers on around town and low beam on out of town during the day
    i find this as a be seen and be safe thing
    now then i normally drive at around 10 over the limit when out of town which by the read out in town the other day at an indicated 110 i'm only doing 104
    surely NSW boys aren't going to be that picky
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    I can't talk for states other than Vic. If you believe the Polititions & Police They're not revenue raising SPEED Cameras, lets get the terminology correct fellas, they're "ROAD SAFETY CAMERAS" YEAH RIGHT that being the case they should be taking pics of every vehicle driving within the limits and be rewarding all the good drivers for driving SAFELY. A point for each camera passed legally, to a cut off of say 1000 points, at which time the safety concious driver earns FREE Rego for the next year. This would certainly encourage good driving habits.
    SPEED DOES NO KILL PEOPLE DO
    And all this crap comes at a time when the RACV and other Motoring Bodies are lobying the pollies to abolish the 110kph freeway limits because the say the momotony of constant 100 or 110 kph actually puts drivers to sleep and conversely when sitting on 160 or more drivers are much more alert and in control.
    However a SUV at those speeds would be downright dangerous.

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    I don't know about other states, but here in Victoria we've got a "Drive Right" program where you put this big "Drive Right" sticker on the back of your car, and if the Police see you doing a good deed like being courteous to other drivers or following the speed limit, they will "reward" you with prizes and stuff.

    I was wondering, has anyone on here got one of these stickers on their car, and if so have you ever received a reward from the cops? Or do you know anyone who's received something?

    The idea is there, but it's impact is pretty much lost seeing that most of time the cops are breaking the same laws that their trying to enforce, speeding (without having their lights on), not indicating, tailgating, etc.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    I remember being amazed at the roadside speed camera's when I was living in Switzerland a few years ago. They were brick boxes mounted on the footpath. The tricky bit was sometimes they would have cameras in them, and sometimes just the PHOTO of a camera. Could you imagine if that happened here. Imagine an ill-tempered 4WD driving Aussie tradesman getting booked four days in a row for doing 63 in a 60 zone, before realising the camera was there. In my fantasy I would, I mean he would, be pulling that sucker out of the ground and dragging it up the road before it got him again. The Swiss aren't like that, maybe they're too rich. The cameras never seemed to be vandalised. But you wouldn't be hounded by police driving in Switzerland either. Autobahn limits were 130, but 160 was o.k. And people drove sensibly. Life is different in Switzerland. Actually I remember a pushbike shop in Luzern that used to leave its bikes out the front at night (padlocked, yes but still outside).
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Yeah I renamed it the drive shite program caus every time I see someone with one of those stickers there doing something bloody dangerous!
    for example:
    I saw one person driving a snot green dato 120y! on the freeway doing 30kays in the right lane on the phone whilst all around are doing 100kays and that sticker in his back window!

    It seems to me the people who have the drive shite sticker find any excause to dabb the brakes, stop, take bloody ages to make the simplest of merges & turns and general straight line driving oh not forgetting the new saftey manuver of the decade; taking the entire light cycle to get the middle of the intersection. If they have to make decision you wil be lucky to get anywere b4 next christmas

    I appologize to any who do have this sticker and are the opposite! I been thinking that since they call them saftey cameras?? We should be getting saftey detectors!! Since the new devices no longer use radar and laser! Why not rename it after thier poxy machines.

    In regard to my previous mail on the freeways now their are Vic Road traffic signal boxs they r like the ones your use to seeing at the lights. I have noticed that they have two sets of piezo sensors one in front of the other for each lane same as the speed ones i spoke of b4. they are every 400m or less and I reckon they detect speed. I know there are no cameras attached since I have speed across many thousands.
    However in Sunbury there is one of these boxs and I have noticed the traffic speed. When its at its peak and large nos of cars are speeding on mass I notice that the speed camera car parks next to the box. It seems I am finding more at favorite speed camera locations round melbourne. It is begining to make me think they have vic freeways wired.

    <small>[ 07 December 2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: AlsPug504 ]</small>

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    i just would not pay the fine.....
    if none of us paid fines for such stupid infringements...the laws would be changed...

    ps how many of u (and be honest now) continued speeding or even possibly drove faster after the initial photo shoot????

    the whole issue is redicilous ... i bet if one could follow some of our magistrates (while driving)99.9% would commit some kind of infringement every day ..FULL STOP....

  22. #22
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    Nothing like a topic like this to stir up some comments, so I’ll add just a few of mine.

    Of course the simple mantra - Speed Kills is bullshit. It is a lie but a convenient one because it allows non thinking bureaucrats and politicians to preach to the masses and promise safety, something which they can never deliver. And it takes the human element out of the equation, i.e., the driver accepting personal responsibility for driving his/her vehicle. So beware of politicians promising safety because it means they will take away your liberty in the process, with no improvement in safety and if anything the reverse.

    If the mantra was correct, the change to 50 kph over the last 2 years in many areas would have reduced road deaths - but it hasn’t. Of course 50 kph is nothing more than reverting to the old 30 mph and road deaths in those days of <u>lower speed limits</u> (for those who were around) were far more than today .. and it should have been pretty obvious why. Amid the madness, in those days we had the lunatic ‘ever so simple’ give way to the right rule. Did the authorities ever admit that rule was suicidal and wrong - no!.. but it was changed ever so gradually by introducing give way signs, changed priorities at stop signs etc... Remember the mantra then... just obey the road rules...that’s all, if everyone obeyed the rule ‘Give Way to the Right’. Crap but a different mantra for a different time!

    Since then road deaths have fallen as a result of finally sensible rules in Australia (as we caught up with the rest of the world ) but I suggest mostly as a result of better engineered vehicles and better roads.

    Also if today’s mantra was correct then some years ago when Iceland introduced a ‘road safety’ campaign based on the Vic Roads system, traffic accidents would have fallen. They didn’t.. they increased.

    Similar results have occurred in the USA. If you’re interested in reading a long report on all the issues in the US and the politicisation of road safety issues, have a read here:
    <a href="http://www.hwysafety.com/MDT_reply_82001_section3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hwysafety.com/MDT_reply_82001_section3.htm</a>

    Just three quotes from this report:

    “Who cares that traffic engineers long ago (30, 40, 50 and more years ago) had conclusively proven that neither speed limits, nor their enforcement has any meaningful effect on traffic speeds and accident rates?” and

    “After a year of intense new enforcement efforts, like Montana, Connecticut ended with increased fatalities and accident rates. Providing another timely example of the fallacy of these programs.” and

    “What effect does enforcement of speed limits really have on accident rates? In virtually every peer reviewed and verified study these programs have had NO positive cause and effect.”

    I’ve ranted enough. A final comment: Have a look at this site to see what the Dutch people think about their speed cameras (called Gatsos after the manufacturer).
    <a href="http://www.tuftufclub.com/english/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tuftufclub.com/english/index.htm</a>

    Frankly I’m surprised there has not been a similar response here.

    D

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Just to throw the spanner in and so on,..... last year the total road toll was just over 20,000. including doa, and death in hospital. Out this 70% were in hospital, 45% died couz of either malpractice or wrong treatment. (we all know how well staffed/beded our hospitals are!)Beleive it it or not, i didn't till diferent sources backed it.
    Total deaths of over 110,000 65% were in hospital and oce again mal- practice was acountable for nearly 50%. why? ever been to a public hospital of late.
    Now if the Gov really want to reduce road toll, start puting the money into hospitals (not into private health funds as most don't cover at-fault majors) and cut the road toll by nearly 50%. Both in the city's and out bush.
    Just my 2 taxed cents.
    xqisid

    ps, hows this for a stupid fine, if you dont have $3 dollars to pay toll at the SH bridge, you get a on the spot bill of $17, if this isn't paid within 7 days (i cash at the bridge) it turns into $118 and 1 point!
    ... ptui!

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Oh, and i forgot to mention, do you know what car causes the most harm in a car>pedestrian accident??
    MOTOR magazine says it's all s1 306's!!!!!!!!!!!! just what i drive!!

    xqisid

    ps, now get outta my way!
    ... ptui!

  25. #25
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    I'm with you Denis. I think we need to start our own TUFTUF club in Oz and get things moving around here. head_ban

    citroen_ AXGT
    citroen_ Xsara 1.8 16V

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