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  1. #1
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Locked Thread?

    General Chit Chat Chat about anything related to anything!
    In the light of that, just wondering why the Commodore Ute thread is locked? There weren't any flame wars, and it wasn't offensive.

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    Cheers,

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    General Chit Chat Chat about anything related to anything!
    In the light of that, just wondering why the Commodore Ute thread is locked? There weren't any flame wars, and it wasn't offensive.

    Cheers,

    Justin
    Wasn't Froggy either.

    The final message said it all. If anyone was so interested in a Holden that they wanted to debate it with others with similar interests, a link was posted so that this could happen.
    That way we don't set off another 100 boring postings on subjects non froggy and save the moderators the agony of having to explain to all the others who complain why it's being allowed to run for so long at the expense of more interesting topics and the reason for this boards existence.
    It was a case of having to make an informed decision based on past & recent experiences where non French car subjects seem to tend to inflame posters as they go along. However, I'm sure that no such problem will be experienced on any one of the many Holden associated boards that exist.

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    In that case,

    Someone better insert the word "French" or "Froggy" somewhere in that descriptor of General Chit Chat!

    Otherwise, it's not living up to what it claims to be, and then there would be double standards on the board.

    Cheers,

    Justin
    [edited to add "be"]

    <small>[ 04 December 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Pug307 ]</small>

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    oh ooh, could it be?,...an indepth discusion on generalisation?,.. will this topic alone need whole forum?... will i ever use correct punctuation, or spell rigt?
    find out here <a href="http://www.notquiteaussiefrogs.gov.au" target="_blank">www.notquiteaussiefrogs.gov.au</a>
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    xqisid.

    ps let me know if im pushing it.
    ... ptui!

  5. #5
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Sorry Justin,

    but I thought that was self evident in the name of this board but as has been said, you will not have this problem on a Holden board although I don't think it would be a great idea to start a thread on French cars & expect a good reception.

    I don't intend labouring on the point but the fact of the matter is that whenever we get into these long & boring threads on non French cars, as moderators we get quite a number of off list e-mails asking why they are on a Fench car board when the entire section is being hijacked by non French car subjects. Maybe someone can explain why it is acceptable to have all these long winded postings on something only a handful are interested in & whenever someone tries to put it to bed, another one of the handful fires it up along another track & we start all over again.

    Most of the over 1000 members here are on here because they want a forum to discuss French cars and there are not many of them around, hence the success of Aussiefrogs.
    If the topic was just as a comparison between a French car & another, no problem. If the topic was about a new model in something French; again no problem. But when it gets into almost passionate and eventually heated discussions from people who in most cases are not really involved with the brands to the extent to be called authorities or enthusiasts and given the fever pitched competition that Ford & Holden have generated between themselves over the years, we can see no point in turning the board into a "little Bathurst."
    I recently posted a link to a board over in the UK which was involved with Pugs and had degenerated into a pack of foul mouthed pimply faced halfwits abusing each other and everybody else they could think of. This is where it goes if an "anything goes" policy is adopted. A couple off that board have ufortunately joined up here but there is no way that aussiefrogs is going to be allowed to lower its standard or change its ethos of sharing the knowledge of French cars.
    Again, I repeat; anyone who wants to discuss cars of other origins can go ahead & post to their hearts delight on the heaps if boards that are dedicated to them without boring the pants off all the other users.

    Let's face it, almost every thread that has got out of hand has been to do with non French cars.
    We've got a good friendly board where we mostly all get along and help each other where we can.
    All we are doing is trying to keep it that way.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    echo's alan op, example the recent COTY thread.
    xqisid
    ... ptui!

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    *cough*

    4WD threads?!?!?

    Exactly how are they "froggy" related?
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 04:17 AM.

  8. #8
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    See, that's what I mean by double standards.

    I understand your point Alan, but if you're going to have such a ruling, the rulings should be applied consistently. If this sub forum is only to be about frogs, many other topics don't belong in there, and then it's no longer General Chit Chat according to the its descriptor, Chat about anything related to anything!

    As was pointed out, what happens to those 4WD/SUV topics - hell, Peugeot, Citroen and Renault don't even make an SUV (no the Scenic doesn't count). What happens if we want to post about impressive automotive developments that weren't froggy? We've got a community here, sometimes we like to share our experiences that may be non Froggy.

    I think the COTY thread, was quite reasonable (and was permitted) - and we had 4 Frogs competing too!

    Looking at the ute thread, and what else is in General Chit Chat, I don't think it's being flooded by non-Froggy cars. If we were in the situation where you had to fish through to the bottom of the page to get a froggy related topic - yes I'd be with you! At least it's automotive for a start, and there was no flaming. To get 5 posts within 30 minutes must indicate that there was some interest.

    There have been some very Froggy threads which haven't had the best of behaviour, not necessarily the fault of the subject, rather the players in the discussion. When personal insults fly around - something needs to be done for sure.

    One of the great things I find about Aussiefrogs is that there is now a little bit of traffic. A dead forum is no fun, and if you look at the state of Peugeot discussion online - it's pretty slow. I think these other threads offer interest, and something else to talk about - as people who enjoy their Frogs, we happen to be car enthusiaists too. Because of this, I think it's only natural that we discuss automotive issues that may go beyond "Frogville".

    I frequent other forums, and in their miscellaneous forums, they have no problem with discussing other marques and various topics. If the General Chit Chat forum is to be just froggy related - then label it so. Or do we need a forum named "The Pub", "Generaller Chit Chat" or something like that question

    So to conclude, I believe

    1. General Chit Chat is hardly being swamped by non-Frog topics, to borrow the words of a certain infamous former QLD politician.

    2. If we are to limit the acceptable content - then we should make the descriptor less misleading. Sure it may be a French car forum - but I think talking about other things is hardly unreasonable.

    Cheers

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  9. #9
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    One final point,

    I fail to see how the ute thread hamstrung all the users out there, making further froggy discussion impossible. I doubt they take up so much attention, that we neglect requests for help, and stop "sharing the knowledge".

    If you want to discuss something - logically you post a thread. If it gathers enough interest, if people can help you, or offer something - they will. Almost like a free market economy I guess. If a certain thread is getting much attention and many replies - isn't there some value there? People are bothering to reply at least, and it's not like some of the threads have been on irrelevant topics such as "The plight of homeless vegetarian Saab driving blowflies in Venezuela".

    I doubt a harmless thread about a ute is going to kill all of that. Certainly in the light of the fact that the board isn't being swamped.

    Cheers,

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  10. #10
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    As I said; nothing has been said that could change the decision, it stands.

    Option #2 If what you have to say about this Holden light truck is so earth shattering, feel free to share it with us here and get it off your chest mallet .

    Alan S cheers!

    <small>[ 04 December 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
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  11. #11
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    C'mon Justin your not serious are you question

    Alan closed this topic in consultation with other moderators myself included, during any given day we will receive numerous emails/PMs from members some of them blatantly rude asking us to move/delete/close/ban posts/topics/members, it is a rare occasion that it has been necessary to do anything, the site is self cleansing, we have a good bunch of members unashamedly proud of their chosen marque (Froggy)

    Chit Chat will remain a forum where members can discuss pretty well anything, but a post as specific as this one surely has no relevance to the majority of members, and whilst as members you can choose not to get involved in the discussion as moderators we are obliged to read and monitor, quite frankly I would have found that tedious beyond my tolerance. The posted responses were certainly negative but admittedly humorous.

    The way Alan closed the topic was with remarkable restraint, he went to the trouble of sourcing the appropriate forum to discuss the ins and outs of V8 utes, more than I would have done. evil :p

    As you have pointed out there is little interference by moderators on the many issues non-froggy discussed in Chit Chat, but behind the scenes you can almost predict the new posts that will create friction, If Alan had not stepped in when he did you may well have been one of the many members calling for a moderator. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    Life’s short, enjoy it. wink

    Cheers
    Chris
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Sounds more like the issue is with the individuals sending complaints to moderators rather than the topics posted to the "General Chit Chat!" section.

    The individuals sending complaints should be made aware the the general section is infact "general" and not specific to french cars.....and that their choice to view or respond is their own.

    It's either general or it's not....it shouldn't be filtered based upon the vocal minority's dislike of the subject (except of course nasty stuff, personal attacks, politics etc etc in which case fair enough)....nor upon a thread's activity (ie alot) that has nothing to do with french cars.

    In this case, a holden ute thread.....gee...i find it hard to believe "danielsydney" did not know the reaction it might incite.....can anyone say saaab?

    The ute thread would probably have died a natural death quickly.......it's execution seemed a lil premature...
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 04:18 AM.

  13. #13
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    We've now reached the stage of quoting "the vocal minority" Oh Dear; what can we say?
    It's also been said that this is a rare event and doesn't monopolize the board when it happens. Oh Dear again;

    A quick check just on General Chit chat showed the following.

    30th April '02 - 2 pages plus a heap of deletions due to hostile posts/

    4th June '02 Pug 307 - Volvos - 2 pages.

    app 6th June '02 - Saab - Danielsydney - 3 pages deleted due to hostile posts.

    30th June - dream cars - ntrx - fair enough subject but got off track on other breeds & started to get a bit hot - 3 pages

    11th July - Volvo- Nick Chandler.....3 pages

    30 th July - putting people off French cars - main contributors - Pug 307 & Murat. The subject was hijacked & again ended up promoting other breeds and running down Froggys thereby causing dissention. 2 pages.

    14th September - Range Rover - Danielsydney - 2 pages

    October - The Bali Bombing - deleted & moderators roasted for doing so.

    November 26th - Danielsydney - COTY - 4 pages on Fords.

    This took only a few minutes to find, but a more thorough search would produce many more and in some cases at a few days intervals. The Holden ute thing was only a few days after the long & winding COTY road which was reminiscent of the Volvo, Saab, Volvo saga that seemed to carry on for weeks and was as long & boring as "Days of our lives." :p

    As the same few names keep on popping up, always showing some (at times intense) interest in things other than French cars, it can only be assumed that what we may be having a problem with is two classes of members; French car Owners...
    and..French Car Enthusiasts.
    I will not mention the number of posts objecting to these subjects and strings and it is impossible for us to keep a record of the number of off list postings complaining about subjects & attitudes to them, but anyone suggesting that it is a vocal minority are definitely correct; it is, but not in the way they would have us think. To use the SUVs and 4 WD against me may be right to a point but remember these things do touch our lives every day of the week and are having an adverse effect on the way we enjoy our own cars and our ability & freedom to drive them as we would like to, so that is really just looking for a soft target using that argument.
    As a compromise, it has been suggested in the past that we may have a dedicated section just for things that only the owners & not enthusiasts are interested in, or a section for non French car related stuff but then it's been pointed out that this is a site for French car enthusiasts after all........and isn't this where we came in and what started all this

    Alan S

    <small>[ 05 December 2002, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    GreenBlood:
    .... during any given day we will receive numerous emails/PMs from members some of them blatantly rude asking us to move/delete/close/ban posts/topics/members....
    I say to all those who email/PM the moderators - stop bothering them and post your comments to the board. I have been on another mailing list for 7 years, with extremely off-topic discussions - which can get inflammatory at times - the moderator has only had to step in about half a dozen times to tell us all to shut up - which we duly do - a few members have unsubbed in a huff, but that was mainly due to the other members running them out of town with virtual pitchforks and flaming torches. Just like a small community would do in reality :-)

    90% of the time, the individual differences are sorted by the members themselves. I think part of the whole system is to air your grievances as part of the "conversation" - if you remove that component, you'll see the moderators doing what they have had to do in this case - lock topics, perhaps prematurely.
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  15. #15
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Alan,

    Admittedly, you have made a quick check.

    9 threads out of 554.
    1.62% of all threads have been that controversial.


    That's hardly a significant figure. C'mon, let's be serious here, to borrow your words "Oh Dear again".

    Even if you go and search in greater detail, I really think you're hardly going to find that Aussiefrogs has become "Svenscarsonline.com.au".

    Just to comment on some of the threads you chose.

    One of mine - Volvos & French Cars. On the basis of what you posted above about topics being fine, on the basis that they are compared to French cars - this topic shouldn't have been any big issue. In fact Alan, you contributed to it positively.

    The topic in which I criticised the quality of French cars - am I not allowed to criticise the flaws of my car, and running a 307 website, I know that it's not the only one. I'd also say it's interesting to point out about how the media points out the 307 has having a huge leap in quality over its predecessors. The car has plenty of strong points, but it has its weak points - why pretend it's perfect? No rosy coloured glasses syndrome from me.

    The dream cars thread. What do you mean by, "...but got off track on other breeds..." Does this mean we're not allowed to dream beyond French cars? That's ridiculous.

    I think the SUV thread is a very fair comment for an automotive forum (although you'll only find us nodding to each other on this forum), but on the basis of what you have said - it appears a double standard.

    If you look at some of these topics - they are getting responses. As I said previously, and coupled with the above statistics - noone is stealing any opportunities from others to contribute by posting such posts.

    One of the good things about Aussiefrogs is that there isn't a Gestapo like constant deleting and editing of messages unlike on some forums - the moderator presence isn't huge, which is a great thing. There hasn't been a huge need for that. At the same time, I find it sad that some cannot discuss other makes in a mature manner, and that at times there are personal insults thrown about. I agree with what Europa wrote - if you have grievances, post them to the board, instead of being faceless men. Noone ever complained to me for posting the Volvo thread - how on earth can one know the feeling out there if noone gives feedback?

    I agree with Chris on one point, I thought it was very good to post a link to an alternate forum for the ute topic. But surely there could be more irrelevant topics than what was posted, I doubt it was offensive or contained any personal vitriol.

    I didn't post the ute topic, did not contribute to it, nor had much intention to contribute to it. Why do I care? Just an issue of free speech. I just feel it was a little overzealous.

    On this issue, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. wink

    Cheers,

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Sorry Alan,
    I didn't mean to "target" anything at all....I was just trying to illustrate the point that not all posts have to be "froggy" related to be interesting or promote discussion....

    The subjects should not be removed simply because they promote heated (sensible) discussion, run to several pages or because moderators may consider them "boring" which, if they run for several pages, obviously aren't "boring" to everyone.

    This is a "general section" of the board.....any subject, especially "car" related threads should be allowed.....this has been argued about before and, i believe, clarified by gibgib.

    If people posting hostile/hostile personal posts are the problem in the threads you mention.......they should be warned of their antisocial behaviour and banned if necessary.....especially if you guys believe it is often the same offenders,

    Either way, surely you'd delete/edit the offending posts before deleting the whole thread

    It would be pretty sad if a ford, holden or whatever couldn't be discussed here (the general section) because we're all too insecure about our own cars.....

    99.9% of the time the moderators do a great job here btw, thanks wink

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    <small>[ 05 December 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: DTwo ]</small>
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 04:20 AM.

  17. #17
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    I second that DTwo,

    That's why I've never complained before!

    Cheers,

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
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  18. #18
    Cal
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    Pug307:
    One of the good things about Aussiefrogs is that there isn't a Gestapo like constant deleting and editing of messages unlike on some forums - the moderator presence isn't huge, which is a great thing. There hasn't been a huge need for that. At the same time, I find it sad that some cannot discuss other makes in a mature manner, and that at times there are personal insults thrown about. I agree with what Europa wrote - if you have grievances, post them to the board, instead of being faceless men. Noone ever complained to me for posting the Volvo thread - how on earth can one know the feeling out there if noone gives feedback?
    Totally agree. I can't believe people would be so gutless as to run to a moderator and complain about the contents of threads. Hello......if you don't like the thread, who is making you read it? It's like people who complain about TV programs. Turn it off! If you don't want to read a thread on Holden Utes, don't. I certainly didn't open it, as I have no interest. It certainly didn't offend me though. Besides, I'm sure the moderators have better things to do.

    Can a compromise be found? What about an Off Topic section? I can understand both sides of this arguement but it seems to me it has been fuelled by "faceless men". Come out and voice you opinions in public.

    Cal.

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  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Short & sweet.

    I pulled a quick cross section which as I pointed out was only the tip of the iceberg.
    The point being made which isn't sinking in is that there is a time & place for these posts and whenever in the past moderators haven't stepped in, then the strings have just gone on & on & on all about nothing. Had this thread not been pulled, we would have had a constant repetitive list of all types of pointless discussion which as history has shown would have been followed up by another posting wanting to compare a Ford ute with a Holden and a discussion on why Mitsubishi haven't brought out a Ute and why Toyota stopped making the Crown ute but Hyundai may soon go down this track. The only time this becomes relevent on this board is if someone is thinking of buying say a Peugeot 307 utility or a Laguna ute. In reality, the closest we have is a Berlingo which as you may know is a panel van made by Citroen.
    As far as being insecure goes; if I was that I would look forward to these postings and head off into the sunset.
    As someone who mailed me pointed out, given the standard of most of the boards that cater for these run of the mill brands, there is also the strong possibility that these types will sign into aussiefrogs just to debate these breeds. This has already happened on a couple of occasions with devastating results (refer to above list of topics) and if the guidelines some here have suggested basically along the lines of this breast beating freedom of speech were to be followed, how soon before the main topics of conversation are based around how to hot a Holden or turbo a Nissan? I have seen it happen overseas with other forums as I pointed out earlier.
    As moderators, we are supposed to keep the tone civil and maintain the integrity of the board which sometimes means knocking potentially troublesome subjects before they cause trouble rather than sort out the mess afterwards. This is based on experience & not personal taste which is why we usually discuss these things prior to taking action.
    Given the same set of circumstances, I'd do it again.
    NOW can we get back to Froggy associated stuff before we have to lock the "Locked Topic" thread? mallet mallet mallet

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Well i've done all my "breast beating".....

    May I suggest,

    "General Chit Chat!
    Chat about anything related to anything!"

    Be changed to what is actually allowed and conditions of moderation are clearly stated so there can be no misunderstanding.

    Those of us wishing to converse on subjects outside these conditions will head elsewhere to do so.
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 04:20 AM.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
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    DTwo:
    Well i've done all my "breast beating".....

    May I suggest,

    "General Chit Chat!
    Chat about anything related to anything!"

    Be changed to what is actually allowed and conditions of moderation are clearly stated so there can be no misunderstanding.

    Those of us wishing to converse on subjects outside these conditions will head elsewhere to do so.
    Amen to that!

  22. #22
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    DTwo,

    I have e-mailed the other moderators and endorsed your positive suggestion.
    I don't know when I will be able to access for a while today but I expect a positive response and a mutual solution all can live with.
    Let's let this topic have a rest & wait until we have a response which will be posted on this section as a message in its own right.

    Thanks again,

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    If you do decide to broaden the allowed topics of the General section, can we at least try to keep it motoring related?

    I don't really care what toothbrush you use.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    "I recently posted a link to a board over in the UK which was involved with Pugs and had degenerated into a pack of foul mouthed pimply faced halfwits abusing each other and everybody else they could think of."

    Sign them up and send them a sticker is what I say, they sound like my kind of people!

    Alan you did the right thing, that thread was only ever going to be divisive. People can still read it and make up their own minds...

    As for the behind scenes tackling of moderators I'd agree that people ought to deal with issues on the board and not undercover if at all possible.

    Forget the fun cruises through the hills around Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra and Adelaide (oops I've left out Stuey), maybe we can use the board to organise fun days where we all meet and throw pies and rotten fruit at each other.

    cheers!
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    BogMaster:
    .... maybe we can use the board to organise fun days where we all meet and throw pies and rotten fruit at each other.
    ROFL! Don't forget the stale bread...

    <small>[ 05 December 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Europa ]</small>
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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