Towing with the Fuego
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  1. #1
    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Towing with the Fuego

    Just picked up some high tensile bolts, to bolt the towbar to the chassis. Although they arent as thick as I expected.

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    Anyone have a Haymen Reece towbar fitted to their Fuego?

    Know what sort of loads can be towed on one of these, and how much you shouldnt?

    I was CONSIDERING towing a car trailer with a 16 on it.
    Powered by high grade French plutonium.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    There is a booklet available from Vic Roads that gives the information. If the trailor has 4 wheel overide brakes the trailor/load combo not to exeed 1.5 time the towing vehicle weight.
    If your thinking of hiring a trailor, bear in mind they have brakes on only two wheels, and can weigh anywhere from 700kg to 1 tonne empty.
    My bare bones lightweight tandem, came in at 360kg on the weighbridge.
    renault_ renault_ renault_ renault_ renault_ renault_

    <small>[ 27 July 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
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    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    the R16 probably weighs about as much as the Fuego. It'd be a borderline tow with a Fuego, you'd probably flatten your rear suspension to it's bump stops (R16's are very nose heavy).

    We hate 4wds, but if you can find someone with one, this is what they are made for ... Towing heavy weights. There not the most stable of things, but 3tonnes of mass Vs 2tonnes worth on the trailer... Simple physics ... There trucks, trucks are designed to tow loads (due to there physcial mass).

    Failing that, do you know anyone with a Citroen CX (next best thing, self leveling suspsion, exceptional suspension geometry, good brakes). Followed closely by any other large front wheel drive (as they are pulling from the front of the towed vehicle and are much more stable).

    At the bottom of the heap you have your unstable at most times, dunnydores and foulcans, very low speed towing with lots of leveling devices and extreme caution would be the go if one of these things was to be used mallet

    I'd imagine on a light custom built trailer the fuego will tow ok, but it just doesn't have the physical weight and rear suspension to cope with heavy duty towing. The trailer I usualy hire weigh in the region of 800kgs EMPTY. That's probably over the fuego's towing capacity empty.

    The CX will tow about 1800kgs according to the handbook as long as it's a braked trailer. As would most FWD cars of it's size.

    I always drive the car if at all possible. Could you spend a few hours on the R16 and get it ready to drive?? A 1day permit costs about as much as trailer hire.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    YES I have a towbar fitted to my fuego
    And I will sell it u if u want

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    DoubleChevron:


    At the bottom of the heap you have your unstable at most times, dunnydores and foulcans, very low speed towing with lots of leveling devices and extreme caution would be the go if one of these things was to be used mallet

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shane!! towing a heavy monster trailor i'd rather an olden or a fijord than any fwd car no matter what size especially the smaller ones, there is simply to much weight on the tow ball ( there are Vic Roads laws covering this, it's in the booklet). Towing my R10 with a VW Pissat, is the reason i built the trailor. No traction or braking in the FWD, on even slightly damp roads.
    From memory the max weight allowed on the tow ball is about 50 kg, under load conditions, i used bathroom scales whilst setting up the balance of the trailor, specifically for the R10, in nose on configuration. Another regulation states that on a normal trailor, engine weight must go on the towball. cheers!

    <small>[ 28 July 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

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  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Damian,

    R U serious. The ONLY way using front wheel drive is a negative is for traction on slippery surfaces while trying to pull away. The extra weight over the front wheels helps greatly keep traction on the front wheels (for braking & steering). You pulling from the front of the towed vehicle instead of the middle (MUCH safter and less likely to be unstable), the front wheels have more weight on them to aid braking.

    On Dunnydores, the front wheels will head to the sky, the rear suspension will flatten, the front will become light & floaty. With my old CX, the rear self levels, the rear brakes get full pressure to them(the rear brakes takes it's pressure from the rear suspension, so the more weight on the rear, the more pressure supplied to the brakes) and the front doesn't lift. I don't see any dunnydore doing that...

    Still nothing will be as good as the sheer bulk of a 4wd (or light truck).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    <small>[ 29 July 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: DoubleChevron ]</small>
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Shane,
    I stand behind what i said earlier, as it was written from experience, towing a typical, servo hire trailor. Granted i've had no experience with fluid suspensions, therefore i don't have an opinion on them. What i experienced with the Pissat, with the overloaded tow ball was, under accelleration, the weight would pull the towbar down, reducing the weight on the front drive wheels, causing wheel spin, conversely under brakes the tow ball was pushed down lifting the nose again causing front wheel lock up.
    When i first built the trailor, Vic Roads regs classed it as a Dog trailor, as seen towed by trucks, the type with the steerable front axle, having done it this way, i experienced no towing problems using the passat. The only trouble is these things are almost impossible to back up more than a few metres. Since then i've had a succession of RWD cars and changed the trailor to Tandem, now i have some apprehension, at towing with the R18 as it gets closer to being RWC'd
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Damian,

    I'd love to hear some more details on your trailer. I'd like to build a tandem but there just so bloody expensive. I really dislike with a passion the incredibly heavy rental trailers (I've had a couple now with REALLY dogdy brakes which is very frightful).

    thanks!
    Shane.
    PS: Your Passat must have very strange suspension geometry to be pushed *down* when braking eek! The CX is the best thing I've ever towed with. If it wasn't for the luisurly acceleration and crazy [email protected][email protected] --Usualy a 'D' tailgating me I wouldn't know the trailer was there roll_lau

    <small>[ 28 July 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: DoubleChevron ]</small>
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  9. #9
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    DoubleChevron:
    Damian,

    R U serious. The ONLY way using front wheel drive is a negative is for traction on slippery surfaces while trying to pull away. The extra weight over the front wheels helps greatly keep traction on the front wheels (for braking & steering). You pulling from the front of the towed vehicle instead of the middle (MUCH safter and less likely to be unstable), the front wheels have more weight on them to aid braking.

    On Dunnydores, the front wheels will head to the sky, the rear suspension will flatten, the front will become light & floaty. With my old CX, the rear self levels, the rear brakes get full pressure to them(the rear suspension takes it's pressure from the rear suspension, so the more weight on the rear, the more pressure supplied to the brakes) and the front doesn't lift. I don't see any dunnydore doing that...

    Still nothing will be as good as the sheer bulk of a 4wd (or light truck).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Ummm, Shane...R U serious
    I have never driven a citroen but Rear wheel drive cars are generally better at towing than front wheel drives. Its simple pyhsics

    Yes the front wheels will head to the sky, but the same things will happen with a FWD car, and on a FWD car, this means no tractive grip and reduced steering effectiveness as a result.

    Any extra weight that is on the front wheels of a FWD by virtue of its design is far outweighed by the fact you have a trailer pushing down on the rear wheels (and hence lifting up the front of the car)

    In regards to the "pulling from the middle", the trailer doesent know which wheels are pulling the towball. If it was a problem, god help every semi-trailer ever built. It might make a difference if it was in the middle of three articulated pieces but other than that, rear wheel drive is a better choice for towing.

    It's the only reason I would EVER own a leaf sprung RWD.

    Regards,

    Richard

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Guys

    about 5years ago my uncle had a near brand new dunnydore. They had a new caravan and it was frightfully unstable to tow at over 80km/h with. They had heavy duty suspension etc... put under the back of it, and it was still barely managable.

    Thinking it was the van my grandfather dropped it on the back of his aging Magna wagon. As he didn't have the level bar setup etc.. on they just headed out the highway. High speed?? No problem, stable as hell. Go back and grab the dunnydore with it's heavy duty specialy designed rear suspension and it was hard to keep on the road with all the level bars etc... when doing more than 80km/h.

    I don't understand how the fact accleration grip can affect braking in the slightest, rear wheel drive will dive at the back just the same as front wheel drives when loaded. The difference is if you lose a front wheel drive, you hit the trailers electric brakes and floor the car and the whole thing will RIP itself straight.

    Oh well, I'm always willing to be proven wrong wink

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  11. #11
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    if its a VN commodore (or VP) they are possibly the most unstable dog of a vehicle regardless of trailer or not. It was an aero problem and apparently was made worse by towing a trailer.

    Holden even made a running change to the ride height shortly after release in a bid to rectify the problem.

    You may notice that the VP has a front airdam that is about as aero as a volvo. This was purposely designed to try and give the fron a bit more downforce and stability.

    NOT a good example.

    by the way, if you hit the eletric brakes on a trailer to "straighten" it out, you have done something stoooppid to require that course of action and the same result will occur if its RWD.

    Don't take my word for it, ask anyone that tows for a living...

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Shane, i've not driven a dunnydoor, however i've scanned before and after pic's of my trailor.

    <a href="http://www.geocities.com/blownrenault/trailor.html?1059399007610[/URL]" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/blownrenault/trailor.html?1059399007610[/URL]</a>
    will get you there all up cost $800 IN '97, I USED PASSAT REAR STUB/BRAKE ASSEMBLIES TIMES 4 and a front strut "modified" for the front steering pivot, plus my own idea for sideways tilt on the front axleusing 13" passat wheels all up weight not to exceed 1760kg
    Thats the aggregregate of the 4 tyre loadings. It had no suspension at all, it bounced around when empty, however when loaded if the wheels are held firmly the suspension on the load car takes all the jolting and tames the beast.
    The second pic shows the conversion to tandem, bear in mind it is designed specifically for the rear engined R10 so the balance point ( ie. wheel placement ) is a long way back. Both axles can be repositioned independantly forward or aft, and as it still has no suspension, i have made the draw bar, height adjustable so that it can be altered easily to be towed by any car.
    Cheers

    <small>[ 28 July 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Damian,

    very interesting trailer. It'd be brilliant for a Renault 10 (or VW beetle), I imagine it'd be frightful if I put a 'D' on it roll_lau The design would be the same, you'd just move the wheels forward.

    Bob has made a similar sort of trailer that can tilt. He's used the stub axles from the back of two DS's. He used 'walking beam' suspension I think it's called. ie: no suspension, but the wheel on one side is interlinked the the 2nd wheel on the other side. I've been in the C35 with the trailer behind it, and i must say it towed remarkably well.

    Hmm, I'd love to get a similer trailer to your first one made up, have it tilt, and have the front axle 'steerable'.

    With the rear wheel drive bit, if the trailer takes off, you plant you foot, the front risers, the rear drops aggravating the unstability. As the FWD is pulling as opposed to pushing I'd hope this would be limited to a degree.

    C'mon where's the Semi drivers amongst us to tell me I'm full of sh!+ mallet wink

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: I'll certainly never be using a dunnydore or fowlcan to tow with. CX, yeah, DS probably, Magna ... Possibly, 4wd definatly. Never an unstable dunnydore though ... frown
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  14. #14
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    DoubleChevron:

    With the rear wheel drive bit, if the trailer takes off, you plant you foot, the front risers, the rear drops aggravating the unstability. As the FWD is pulling as opposed to pushing I'd hope this would be limited to a degree.

    (
    Umm..as I said before...the trailer doesnt know if car towing it is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive....it is ALWAYS being pulled by the tow ball. The weight will transfer to the rear of the car under acceleration no matter what car it is....its simple pyhsics..Unless you own a cit, and then they just LOOK like they are defiying the laws of physics...

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Shane you asked to be told, ya fulla sh1t, from a semi driver, consider yourself told. I hold a heavy combo license.
    There really no relevance in using, Semi driving tecqniques in relation to cars and trailors, first off the attachment point geometry is totally different,on a prime mover the trailor attaches forward of the rear axle,compared to the trasilor ,which attaches considerably to the rear of the rear axle, as are the air brakes on both prime mover & trailor, compared to cable or hydraulic override brakes on trailors. Electric brakes are still reasonably rare probably due to the cost. In any event i wouldn't recomend slamming on the electric brake on any hitch other than a Hayman reece or other multi point attachment hitch, any other you'd likely pull the whole arse end off your car,
    As an example at present the towbar for my R18 uses just 4-120mm x 6 mm plain steel bolts to mount it to the car.
    cheers!

    <small>[ 29 July 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks Damian, in that case I'll just live in my own happy little world telling myself I'm right & try to ignore other poeple with a lot more towing experiance than I'll ever have roll_lau roll_lau roll_lau

    Of course the trailer doesn't know if the front or back wheels of the car are pulling it along, the car itself sure as hell feels more stable though (I'll go back to my own happy little world now :p ). Dunnydores are baaaddd, Citroens are goooodddd... Ahhh, I'm feeling better already.

    Seriously though, back to the subject, can this Renault 16 be *driven* as apposed to towed?? I'd always drive over tow if given the choice ... It's MUCH safer. It really would be a very borderline tow behind a Fuego, especialy if it was for any distance.

    If it must be towed, a trailer like Damians would probably be best. Strange as it sounds, could you put this sort of load *backwards* on your trailer Damian?? It is setup to have all the weight to the back ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    Having had a Fuego with a towbar, I'd have to say dont do it. The Fuego (as mentioned) is simply not a heavy enough car to control that much weight - the trailer would do most of the steering! The Fuego does tow very well within its weight division however. I have towed an 8 by 5 cage trailer loaded to the gills with furniture, and the chassis/brakes coped just fine.
    My advice is find a friend with a landcruiser or the like and use that, or hire a light truck (or a falcon ute. I have towed a tandem trailer with a 504 on it, and the ute tray loaded with furnture at 110kph in a hired AU ute - I used the fuel guage as a speedo mallet Handling was a bit scary though and I wouldnt have wanted to stop in a hurry....)
    I would only use the Fuego in an emergency and I would not be going over 40 KMH and would be avoiding hills and windy roads.

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    say where's Vivid live. Maybe one of us Aussiefrogs poeple is in his area that owns a 604/CX/4wd/heavy car that could pull the R16 for him ... ??

    Has he thought of towing, like 2 drivers, no trailer tow rope kinda towing. The Fuego would have enough grunt to pull the R16, you then just need somoene you trust enough no to run up the arse of the Fuego damaging both his cars mallet mallet roll_lau roll_lau
    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Shane your advocating Law Breaking now. FLAT TOWING was OUTLAWED Several years ago, the exception is hard coupled with either an "A" frame or Draw bar, connected via tow balls on each vehicle. As far as i cann find the decision was made because without the motor running there are virtually no brakes, this would make towing a very dangerous task, in the mid '80's i got booked for flat towing a car with its motor running, not because of the brakes. IT was raining and the early Holden i was towing needed vacuum for the wipers, the officer booked both drivers
    If anyone needs to be towed my trailor is available as is the V8 Fairlane tow car.
    Infact the pick a part wreckers in Clayton is only 10 mins from my place.
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    shane, in answer to your earlier Question, yes i can put the car on either way.It is fitted with a hand winch. I towed the R18 wagon nose first, without any trouble the 45 k from peabody's to my place. The only reason I'm trying to replace the f/lane with the R18 is it's just to damn thirsty. For instance a trip from springvale to Daylesford towing the R10 i look at $70 round trip same as to Morwell & back 260km $65
    cheers!

    Ps:- horror of horrors i've even had a cursed dunnydoor on it lol arse about at that, i've even had a combi van on it.

    <small>[ 29 July 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Shit!!

    Your bloody joking about the towing bit. I rang up for a permit to bring Ashs CX home, I didn't have the engine or body number (just the rego). I was told Nope!! However had I considered 'towing' it with a tow rope. I said "The car isn't registered". I was told that's ok, as long at the car isn't being driven under it's own power. This was someone at VICROADS!!!!

    I told him "no can do, it's a Citroen, without it running I have no brakes, suspension or steering". He said that's ok, as long as it's not progressing, ie: being driven under it's own power...

    If I'd been caught doing that and booked after I was told by vicroads it was ok I'd have been extremely p!$$ed off

    So what is the the case by law??? Where's mistarenault when we need him roll_lau roll_lau Seriously though, you will have no vacum assistance for the brakes on the car being towed. Much safter would be to tow it with the engine idling, or the car in top gear so there's manifold pressure?

    A common trick with dead cits is to tow them in gear with the spark plugs out so the hydraulic pump is still turning (I imagine the first few blocks with no hydraulic pressure --until it builds up. would be rather exciting roll_lau )

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  22. #22
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Camden NSW & Selwyn NZ
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    2,334
    Regarding the RWD versus FWD towing debate, I've towed 500-1000kg with both 504s (RWD) and a Ford Mondeo (FWD).

    Both of these cars are approx 1250kg with 2 litre engines and in both cases it was hard to notice you were towing anything at all, even on the freeway, unless you were going up a hill at slow speed.

    I regard both of these cars as very stable towing vehicles providing you don't exceed their rated towing capacity (which is approx 1200kg in both cases).

    The only difference between the two vehicles while towing is if you have to negotiate a steep slippery surface in which case the Mondeo wheelspins much easier than the 504 (the reason is simple physics).

    Dave

    <small>[ 29 July 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Wendouree Vic. Aust
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    'fraid not shane, i don't joke about such things, i was told of the law change by a mate in the towing industry, and thought """yeah right""" so got onto police and vic roads and was told the same NO MORE FLAT TOWING with rope, chain or wire cable, and if towed on it's wheels it must be hard connected, with absolutely no chance of disconnection in transit.

    However it may be a case of who you ask & city or country offices.
    When i built my trailor i was living in Kyneton & took it to Vic Rds Kyneton for registration, of course being a one of a kind, it was to hard for them & they sent me to Bendigo, there i was told it's illegal, it's not a tandem so we can't register. Fortunately i had the regulation book for trailors with me, in the end i spent 3 hrs describing my trailor to Engineers at Vic Roads Melb before they finally said ok.
    They don't know thair own f---ing regulations so what chanch do we have????
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,382
    Damian,

    you want an economical(ish) tow barge with masses of space, self leveling rear suspension, brilliant driveability. Nothing would tow as well as something with the wheelbase of this (and no rear overhang) ...

    Check out the 'for sale' section of this board in the form of a CX wagon...

    Just what you need for towing the R10 (in a very sedate sort of fasion --you'll have no choice there roll_lau ). Certainly it'll be slow, but no slower than the R18 wink

    It's gotta be a bloody bargain at the price there asking, I can't believe this hasn't stired up a heap of interest!!

    You could fit the Mrs in, 6kids in the back, the R10 on the towbar and enough room in the back for snacks/picnic seats and still have space to spare ...

    What do you reckon?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
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    Wendouree Vic. Aust
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    Shane, was that a genuine offer to spring me $2000 to secure the said CX wagon???????
    HAW haw haw haw thought not. The R18 was a free bee & i still don't have the funds to put it on the road and all it needs is a windscreen, RWC & rego.
    dance cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

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