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Thread: supercharging

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    supercharging

    Does anyone have experience in fitting superchargers to a standard or modified engine, particularly Citroens ? what are the problems ? does the compression ratio have to be lowered as with a turbo ?
    I have read some good reports of superchargers being fitted to Big6 and D's when they were new.

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    i have no knowledge i can offer..... but i too am interested in supercharging... inparticular Xsara's.

  3. #3
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    mistareno's Avatar
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    A toyota 4AGZE Supercharger would do the job very nicely. They run with a 5 rib multi-V belt and they have an A/C type clutch that means you could run it on a switch (boost/no boost) If you did it this way, you could probably wire in an additional injector (bridged of the existing injector pulse signal)to fire only when the supercharger is on, this would remove the need for a new computer. They are a very compact unit and bearing in mind the engine sizes are similar, you could probably use the corolla pulleys as a basis for sizes (an boost)
    QUOTE "The Toyota 4-AGZE motor was used in the 86-89 MR2 Supercharged edition MR2s. The motor is a modified 4-AGE unit. Static compression ratio of the motor was dropped from 9.4:1 to 8.0:1. The camshafts are identical to a normally aspirated car, although their timing may be different. The motor is fitted with a different type of injector with a higher flow capacity. Boost level is set at 8 PSI and achieved at 4000 RPM and higher, however the supercharger creates usable boost from idle through redline."
    These are a very reliable unit and are about the size of an A/C compressor.
    They cost about $500 from jap import wrecker.
    Regards,

    <small>[ 28 April 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Some of the 403 and 203 people at Macquarie Uni used to supercharge too, back in the late 60's / early 70's.

    Any of you out out there?

    Cheers

    Rod
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  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    for 203's and 403's there used to be a couple of campanies called mag and constantin that used to make the kits for them
    they also made kits for the 404 as well
    there were 2 other companies as well that made blowers as well back then but they were mainly aimed at VW's and a few other makes
    i have a friend that used to drag race his blown 203 at castlereagh drags back in the 60's 70's
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    The blower on my R10 is from the Toyota Soarer same physical shape as the MR2(4AGZE) with bigger ports. there is heaps of data on the net if you search for MR2 or 4AGZE, including wiring diagrams & plumbing layout with bypass for when the blower is not operating. with toyota pulleys my set up gives 10lb boost at 5000rpm after that i'm to busy to look at the gauges, lol. With an increase in comp/ratio from 8.6:1 to approx 11.5:1, you do need to change Cam timing reducing the inlet/exhaust overlap,and reduce overall advance timing to limit detonation (pinking). Reducing the comp/r would relieve the need to run HIGH Octane Fuels, up till now i've had to run Avgas, with the fuel injection & water injection coupled with intercooling it's hoped i can run on PULP, time will tell,it's not far off a trip to the Dyno.
    A possibility for reducing the C/R is a copper shim, any good workshop dealing in Blowers or Turbo's should be able to advise on options.
    My set up suits me, but would certainly not be street friendly.
    cheers cheers! renault_ renault_ renault_

    <small>[ 29 April 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Damien, and others i wanted to fit that same Supercharger to my S16, but it was going to be difficult, A/C compressor goes and you need lots of fabrication work too. Also even if i did sort out all nigglies (fuel, timming, detonation etc), the diff and drive shafts wouldn't last..
    It also puts me in a very difficult category under cams, hence the competition would be very though too.
    It is very possible, in a 306, you ussually loose the A/C comp, but a turbo is about as difficult too.
    Id rather just P/P the head, Headers, and quad throttles for 200 BHP,.. but im not sure now.
    besides im too busy learning race craft/driving first before i try and make the car go any much faster..ps. any race tips for Eastern Creek?
    cheers Xq
    ... ptui!

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Jeez Rod,

    I was there or I think I was.....but didn't notice any supercharged pugs, the odd 403 and a few Renault 4's...but it was a certain time and the memories are dimmed...no doubt by the numerous treks to the "Ranch" and other stuff.

    cheers!

    Rod Hagen:
    Some of the 403 and 203 people at Macquarie Uni used to supercharge too, back in the late 60's / early 70's.

    Any of you out out there?

    Cheers

    Rod
    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  9. #9
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Julian,

    From what I read on the 206gti.net list, some have tried to turbocharge the engines in France and the engines haven't lasted well. Someone on one of the 206 lists has turboed their 1.6, which has the same engine as yours.

    Bear in mind your engine has a compression ratio of 11.0 as well, you don't get many petrol cars with much higher compression ratios.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    Geez, maybe its not sucvh a good idea.... i was un-aware of that compression ratio..... eek!

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    Bear in mind your engine has a compression ratio of 11.0 as well, you don't get many petrol cars with much higher compression ratios.
    The thing is though, are the Citroen and Peugeot engines the same? The strange thing I have noticed is that Citroen quote a different compression ratio for the TU5JP4 compared to Peugeot (9.6:1 compared to 11.0:1). Similarly power and torque figures are slightly different.

    Citroen Xsara (from Citroen Aust Website)

    Power : 82kW at 5750rpm
    Torque : 153Nm at 4000rpm

    Peugeot 206 1.6 (from Peugeot Aust Website)

    Power : 80kW at 5800rpm
    Torque : 147Nm at 4000rpm

    If these figures are correct, I wonder what are the differences between the motors. Whether this would have any bearing on the ability to super/turbo charge the engine I don't know. In any case there is quite a difference in compression.

    Troy.

  12. #12
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Wait it gets better.

    On the tech document that I've got.

    87kW/110HP @ 6600rpm. Don't know how the hell the French can get 87kW to equal 110HP.

    145Nm @ 5200 rpm.

    10.8 compression ratio.

    Doesn't seem like the engine I've got, but all the physical dimensions seem the same.

    When the 206 was first launched, the car had 82kW. I'm inclined to believe this, given that at the time the car had 110HP, and it still has 110HP, only kW has gone down from 82 to 80.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    the conclusion being? (other then citroens are faster then Pugs) mallet

  14. #14
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Bah

    206 is still faster

    About the only thing I can conclude is that someone at PSA has pretty iffy maths skills.

    87kW equals 110HP, what on earth is going on there? Love the revs at which the max power & torque are made, pity my cut out is at 6500.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    BogMaster:
    Jeez Rod,

    I was there or I think I was.....but didn't notice any supercharged pugs, the odd 403 and a few Renault 4's...but it was a certain time and the memories are dimmed...no doubt by the numerous treks to the "Ranch" and other stuff.

    cheers!
    I had one of the "regular" 403B's there in 71 through 74 (first a grey one, then a pale pink with fuschia coloured side stripe) .

    There were a couple of Big 6's and a Light Fifteen or two there as well. Not to forget someone with a rather nice blue Renault Dauphine (might have even been a Gordini), Renault 8s and a few Simcas. From memory it was a Mullins (Geoff?) who played around with superchargers in Pugs. If he didn't have one himself he was always talking about them

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 29 April 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Guys,

    so we have peak power, where's the important bit ie: maximum torque generated??

    Torque is the stuff you want, the poor old CX has stump pulling torque from about 2000rpm. This means it'll accelerate happily if 5th from low speeds without frenetic gear changing, haul trailers/caravans up hills with ease etc.... You know, make the car effortless to drive.

    Gotta admit, the torqueless GS screamer is still fun to drive though Nothing like pulling 7500rpm through the gears with the tiny motor howling.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    Bah

    206 is still faster

    About the only thing I can conclude is that someone at PSA has pretty iffy maths skills.

    87kW equals 110HP, what on earth is going on there? Love the revs at which the max power & torque are made, pity my cut out is at 6500.
    The 206 is quicker than the Xsara, sad but true. cry mallet

    Just to confuse things a bit more, here are the figures for the Saxo VTS (also 1.6L) from Citroen's UK site

    10.8 : 1 compression.
    120hp (89.46 kW) @ 6600
    107lb ft (145.07 Nm) @ 5200

    Compression and max rpm match the figures given by Pug307.

    Whats the conclusion from this? Well I think it is best to take all these quoted figures with a grain of salt.

    Troy.

  18. #18
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    The Saxo/106 GTi use a slightly different variant of the TU5JP4.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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