Toyota arghgrh
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  1. #1
    rek
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    Toyota arghgrh

    Lexus/Toyota once again copy another car company's designs! I'm surprised that M-B or anyone else hasn't taken them to court yet.

    http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content/...ews/news3.html

    so let's see now

    Toyota Echo <--> Renault Clio
    Lexus SC430 <--> Audi TT
    Lexus LS400 <--> Merc S class
    next gen Corolla <--> new Honda Civic
    MR2 <--> Boxster

    and now

    some crappy Lexus <--> Pug 607

    etc. etc. and countless others.

    are there any original desigs at Toyota?

    ... well except for maybe the Avalon and that god-awful "smiling/frowning/crying car" I read about in the paper today

    can't wait to see them fail in F1 next year.. I guess there isn't a turbo restrictor they can illegally tweak in F1, like there was in WRC

    [ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: rek ]

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    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    One that really gets my goat is the (newish) Toyota Torago van using the 206 headlights.
    They have to be EXACTLY the bloody same
    I would like to see both side by side at a parking lot so I could verify the same part number

  3. #3
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    To compare...

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Jez 405's Avatar
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    I reckon the new Tarago is a blatant rip-off of the Peugeot 806 Concept of a few years back.
    And don't forget Toyota's Landcruiser Pajero (sorry, Prado) one of which I had the 'pleasure' of driving while my Pug was being serviced..
    1987 Peugeot 205 GTI S1
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    Fellow Frogger! Ranger's Avatar
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    This copying has been going on for years compare the profile of Peugoet 504 and Mazda`s capella slightly scaled down but less than half the CAR!
    any more anyone? cheers Ranger.
    "The defendant is no gentleman, but that is neither here nor there. We find for the defendant, much as we dislike him." A.P. Herbert

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    Not really a rip off, but interesting (to me anyway..) The Daewoo Leganza is actually a design study by ItalDesign for the current Jag. They failed, and the in house team got it, not surprisingly. Jag design cues include the rear taillights (angled a-la XJ-6) and the curve of the C-pillar.

    Mazda also ripped off Alfa with one of their older models - I've even seen one with the Alfa middle grille stuck on !

    Stuey


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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I was actually managing a Toyota franchise when the first Corolla was released. They had a handbill/brochure which on the front had a photo of the Corolla and alongside it a photo of an Alfa with the heading "will the real Alfa Romeo please stand up??" So there's another one for you. They also claimed their 6 cylinder OHC mator was a "copy" of the Mercedes motor but that one was a bit hard to swallow. The first Corona motor was supposedly a copy of a Chev 4 motor due to the Toyota Motor Company having assembled GM cars for decades. The way it used to rattle even when new made that quite easy to agree with. The Isuzu was basically a Hillman, again due to the company being a Rootes group assmembler. I can't remember which one had a copy of the Austin A40 motor (Mazda?) and the Prince was also a rip off of another breed.
    Subaru came along later but their motors sound and swap for VW so easily as to be more than coincidence.
    More recently though, that Honda they advertise with the RT2 - D2 type robot getting excited about and the Pug 206 is so much a copy that they even paint them in the same colour as the Pug factory WRC cars.
    It has always been the Jap forte' to copy anything though. They seem to have had problems with the space shuttle (although no doubts they're working on it) and as has been said, the F1 could be a whole new ball game although once they get their minds set on something they take a bit of tossing

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Actually, Alan, I've read the story about the Toyota OHC six being a Merc. copy in a history somewhere. If you look at the cam cover of both, they certainly look very similar. Of course, they could have copied only the cam cover... BTW that Toyota six is actually a pretty good motor...

    I think the A-series (Austin) was copied by a few Japanese makers.

    Stuey


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  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Stuey,

    We also sold Mercs so we had a perfect way of comparing them. The original 6 was a dead square motor (bore = stroke) and was as flexible a motor as you would ever find. Even in a 4 speed manual (they also came in 3 speed + o/d on 2nd & top) you could actually take off in top gear if you knew the tricks. From say 5 mph there actually was not even the slightest shudder. When they went to 2300 cc all they did was lengthen the stroke which really made them pull.
    I actually managed 38.5 mpg in an economy run which wasn't all that incredible seeing as how it was a dealer sponsored car & the crew had engine oil in the gearbox & diff, accelerator pump disconnected, second throat on the carb strapped down, brakes backed right off and over 40psi in cross ply tyres.
    Made for an interesting trip from Toowoomba into Ravensbourne when I had to make up lost time to get to the checkpoint on schedule. In the overdrive transmission, they also used to freewheel under about 35-40mph.
    Their greatest weakness was that the intake hose to the water pump used to collapse under heavy acceleration after a while which in turn could blow the motor with very little if any forewarning. I did a couple before we nailed the cause and reinforced the hose with brazing rod.
    We actually were the first in Oz to sell some to the Taxi industry which was very Ford/Holden dominated. The dramas we had to go through to even get them through the Transport Dept you could write a book on; after the first one they went so well they became the norm rather than the exception. The cabbies were rapt; small cash changeover every 12 months and half the fuel cost
    Keep this up I'll be buying a Camry

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Alan, which car was that in? The very early Crown? I assume you're talking Toyota?

    My uncle drove one across the nullabor back in '75 and was rapt at the 90 mph criuse.

    Stuey


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  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Yep that's them.
    The very early (original shape) started off at 2litre and went to 2.3
    They could go; no doubt about that!!
    The rear suspension was a bit of a worry on the early model being coil springs but not independent.
    Used to make life real interesting when the tail started to hang out & the back axle started to "tramp" on fast dirt stretches of rallies

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  12. #12
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    Alan, funny you should bring those Crowns up now - I only saw a ute version the other day and realised how rare this early model is. The ute would be an intersting and different classic car/work vehicle in good nick.

    Cheers

    Stuey


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  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Let's straighten things out a bit... if anything the Crown engine leaned on Fiat detail, definitely not Mercedes... publicity blurb would have been propped up by the simple fact that it had a single overhead cam.

    The Prince (and then it became Datsun) SOHC was more like the Benz. To be honest, I can't even see any apparent resemblence between the Benz and the Toyota, but with the Prince, yes.

    The engine copied by Datsun (and improved, let's admit) was the Austin A40 engine, which was neither an A-Series or a B-Series, but in between them.

    Yes, there's definitely some Hillman in the Isuzu Bellet engine, and also in the 2R and 12R Toyota in some respects, but the Toymotor has the GM-style fibre timing gear of all kinds of ill-repute.

    The Bellet, by the way, was another car that could have been an Alfa in styling...

    There was one model Corona tail light that fitted E-types (or almost), handy if you had a Lotus Elan with that model Jag tail lights.

    I'd always notice the Capella/RX2 comparison to the 504, and the Austin 1800 has some features the same if you look with half-closed eyes! Both from Pininfarina, of course.

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    They are capable of original designs, I forgot to add... the Toyota 2000 GT was quite unique, and it had that twincam 2000cc six, must have been a lovely thing.

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    Ray, I'm interested in what you mean by the A40 having an in-between engine (A and B series). I thought it had a 948 A-series.(I'm a bit of a fan of the venerable A-series - I've owned a Frogeye Sprite, a Cooper 'S' Mk 3 and two Minis of varying states of tune. My Dad worked in a BMC factory in Birmingham when the Mini and A40 were current)

    Cheers

    Stuey


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    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    Lets have a look at Toyota's originals:

    -Avalon
    -Corolla
    -Camry
    -Echo (Sedan especially)

    Come to think of it, it is better for Toyota to copy European designs

    This copying can be reciprocal. Japan can copy European styling and the French can copy Japanese build quality

    [ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: billtran ]
    You're not paranoid if everyone hates you.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Billtran,

    Your a wise man
    Japs always copy styling
    Then again lets be fair without pinninfarina french cars dont appeal to everyones tastes.
    You r spot on about engineeering build quality japs r far superior.
    But most not all jap cars generally lack character
    And one last thing if you r thinking that toyota will fail in formula 1 like prost peugeot did you r dead wrong.
    Toyota name might sound boring but they r the builders of the worlds best Auto's
    Even german engineer for mercedes Stated on tv that lexus is the same quality but at half the price.
    Anyway my two cents worth.
    oh yeah the rb series engines in nissan cars was also designed by mercedes

    Murat

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    Ray, just realised, you were taliking A40 Devon (late 40's), I was talking A40 Farina.
    -----------------------------------------
    I reckon there are Japanese cars that have/had character. Honda S800, Toyota 2000GT, Datsun 240Z and 1600, etc. And now? Mazda MX-5, Toyota MR-2 (1&3) (latest is back to its roots) and...that's about it but my memory's shocking. And only one is a blatant copy; at least Mazda openly admits that the Elan was their target. The Japanese' strength is in attention to detail, which leads to the impression of quality. Lexus are just sensational quality wise. Mind you, Mercedes started dropping their game around the time that Lexus came to the market - is this coincidence, or cost cutting to reduce price and maintain market share against increasing competition?

    Personally, what makes the French cars so good is that you really feel like a bloke in France got out there and gave them a thrashing along a windy road to set them up, not that some bloke in Japan analysed the driving parameters via computer and optimised the driving characteristics according to a formula.

    Oh, and even my R12 has Porsche type synchromesh on two of its gears :-)

    Stuey

    [ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Stuey ]


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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Stuey,

    Whether it is fortunate or unfortunate that all companys r using computers more and more as it is cost effective in the long term.
    Japanese companys have learned that they need more and more input from humans and from the early ninetys some records were broken for road miles for testing it came in the form of the legendary z32 300zx, i think they put in over a million miles or more so called experts said that the radical front suspention could not used but after using the then most power computer in the world the cray they came up with the numbers.
    The zx is in the list of the top ten best cars ever produced (just look at the numbers grip and handling figures)
    Yet still toyota produce a car thats even better in everyway toyota supra with almost cracks the 1G on the skidpan from the factory .
    The cars you mention above r all graet cars and i have owned a 2 seat z.
    I always give credit were its due not like some other french car drivers.
    Take it easy

    Murat

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Ah yes, Stuey, the lovely Devons, and then there was that other one, what was that, the Dorset? Or the Hereford? Complete with jumping-out-of-third-gear syndrome....

    The Honda S2000 isn't too bad...

  21. #21
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    Murat,

    You misunderstood. I didn't say computers were undesirable, but rather that the French (and other Europeans) tend to place more emphasis on seat of the pants testing.

    Don't know if your French car jibe included me, but I've owned British(5), German(3), Italian(2), Australian(1) (!) and Japanese(1) cars, and am currently restoring an E-Type Jag. So I'm not biased.

    Your comment about skidpan testing and 'handling figures' is exactly what I meant. That's how the Japanese would think - optimise the car to show up good in the Road and Track test and we'll sell heaps to the Yanks...(aren't they the only ones whose road testers do skidpan tests?)

    Do yourself a favour mate; grab a copy of the UK mag. "CAR" and read some real road tests.

    Have a good one

    Stuey


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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Stuey,

    No i did not misunderstand you at all as your the only one who mentioned the bunch of great japenese cars.
    You miss understood me a bit and what i meant was that the japenese changed there ways have you ever sean any european car being tested for a million k's.
    With the zed in the early 90's the japs tested the car all over america and also did the usual skidpan break tests.
    Anyway people can think whatever they want
    Nobody can build a supercar like the supra for the price the japs can.
    I and many people think it is the best car in the world at a price.
    Build quality is great it goes like a porsche,it stops almost like a porsche and handles like a porsche with the price of a 406 peugeot.
    Anyway you sound like you have a handfull of cars (how do you enjoy that many cars and what do you do with them all)
    E-type jag now thats a car with character
    Still i think about picking up a zed for $20000 or supra for $35000.
    Thats if i ever complete the 205
    If i go through with it it's going to be one hell of a ride.

    Murat

  23. #23
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    Murat, I no longer have all those cars - they're ones I've owned over the years.

    I believe the very first Holden Commodore was tested for a million k's (!!!), and the last S class Mercedes.

    Don't get me wrong - heaps of Jap cars are great, and yes the Supra (or even better, the Skyline GT-R) would be sensational to drive. However, I wouldn't buy one in a fit because they are far too posey for me, but I understand their attraction. And as I've alluded to on this forum before, my Bro. has a WRX with a bit of work done on it, and it is phenomenal to drive. (I'd actually rather the current turbo Liberty as a all weather Q-car.)

    Finally, I forgot to mention the Type R Hondas in my original post, including the new Civic Type R, AND the excellent Lexus IS200.

    Cheers,

    Stuey


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