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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    how different R we?

    i m just curious 2 c what u think/feel about some of the comments made about various cars (wetrher they b french or not)in regards to their power, ride, economy handling etc etc...ie.some of us seem to have quite different opinions on "same" cars and their abilities...what r the things u ve heard that u completely disagree with...???considering your opinion might be based on the fact that u might have owned the car, u might be a mechanic experianced with that particular car or whatever...feel free to make any comment as this post is obviously quite general and broad...it would be nice to get some FIRM statements...ie IS the 504 a better freeway cruiser than the DS???...etc etc u get the idea....

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    dino
    ps...i m sure none of us will take any offence at the fact that some people might disagree with some of our commentry...its all in good fun and in the spirit of the forum...

  2. #2
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    dino:
    ps...i m sure none of us will take any offence at the fact that some people might disagree with some of our commentry...its all in good fun and in the spirit of the forum...
    Yep, dino, we would've never survived on this forum otherwise wink

    I'll speak about two modern Peugeots, the 206 & 307.

    206.

    Sometimes you read reviews and you think, they saw the badge and rewrote the brochure. The 206 seems to get a bit of this IMHO. It's just seems a bit overrated.

    Ride - overrated here for sure. If the Jazz is a disaster here, then the superior 206 is a real let down. At lower speeds you get all the pitter patter in the cabin, exacerbated by the lack of refinment in the car. Good over speed humps though, you do notice the greater suspension travel than the 307. At high speeds, it feels underdamped compared to the 307.

    Handling - no real problems here My quick experience in the GTi was impressive. The XRs are very good too, steering reasonably weighted, reasonable amount of feel too. Could be a bit more direct. The car slides nicely from apex to apex, it's all quite coordinated, and the passive rear wheel steer helps. At times, I found the damping wanting. I was a little disappointed initially because of what I had read, I had expected the 206s to be miles ahead of the 307, but they were similar. The 307 is more secure. The 306 is more fun.

    Powertrain - 1.4 & auto were really well matched, this surprised me. Cable throttle ensured snappy throttle response, which made the car feel a lot faster than what it was. Gearbox was smooth, sound logic, but did have a disconcerting lag between 2nd & 1st gear on downshifts. The car was nice and nippy to drive. You'd never win a traffic grand prix, but everything was just nicely matched. The engine might've been gruff, but it did its job well enough. I found the 1.6 & auto didn't match so well - better acceleration was offset by slightly duller throttle response and clunky and strange shifting.

    Fuel Economy - excellent in the 1.4, just brilliant - this is one point most reviewers and I concur with. Economy in the 1.6 is a bit disappointing considering it had no noticeable difference to my 307, yet is lighter & smaller.

    Interior - Wheels says the 206 1.4XR feels classy inside, a statement like that proves they have little, witness the lack of quality. Poorly shaped front seats with no bolstering, no shape in the base or backrest. Good rear room for a supermini of its era and glovebox is well sized. Remote audio controls are great. Terrible seating position that makes you realise why the French created the Hunchback of Notre Dame (if they included steeringwheel reach adjustment it'd be practically fine), pedals designed for miniscule feet. Very good visibility. Nice detailing in the instruments binnacle - white needles on red look great.

    Quality - The design is aesthetically appealing, but the execution is what spoils it. Absolutely pathetic interior plastics - a real achievement of the absolute nadir of the automotive plastics industry - shiny, hard and noisy. The roof lining is one notch above C3 Chux cloth. Various rattles eminate from beneath the panels. Air vents don't hold their vertical positions well. Car needs noise insulation - this makes it feel cheaper. I've been savage about quality, but it really is poor. Unless you drive it, you'll really wonder why it's $24,500 on the road.

    The 307 will come next time.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Dino,

    Don't expect to get much response from the Cit set as most are either packing, travelling or just arriving at Maleny for the Easter Cit-in.
    I'm only a day tripper as it's not far away from me, so possibly the response from the double Chevronners will be pretty thin on the ground.

    Alan S whistle
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    dino:
    IS the 504 a better freeway cruiser than the DS???...etc etc u get the idea.....
    I'd be very surprised if the DS wasn't a better freeway car, especially since the DS is sure to be quieter.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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    1994 106 Xsi
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  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think here it's pretty wise to understand that 'DS' really stands for 'Different Strokes'... and that's an abbreviation for the whole expression:

    Different strokes for different folks!

    I agree that the DS would be a better car for long straightish roads, whether freeway or through the back of Queensland... but I can't see it being deficient when the road gets windy either.

    And there is little wrong with a nicely kept 504 on the straight stuff, certainly nothing wrong with it on the back of Queensland style of road.

    So it would all come down to preferences of the individual.

    Different strokes...

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    hmmm.....DS vs 504 on freeway...interesting comparison....

    I've only driven a DS23 5spd pallas and it romped along nicely....certainly seemed to have more guts than any stock 504 i've driven.

    To my ears the DS was probably louder mechanically than a 504....

    I'd take a 5spd DS23 over a 504 for a freeway.....
    if there were late model 504TI 5spds in australia it might be a different story

    I'd take a 504 over ID or smaller engined 4spd/auto DS for freeways though
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 03:50 AM.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! GTI180's Avatar
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    Justin, what do you think of the 206 XT then, remember you drive mine at the AFD.
    I feel the XT is put together better than the XR, and having the velour seats its nicer for cruising in. I have 1.6 manual and i will usually get 600-700km per tank of fuel which is better than i used to get out of a 1.5 ltr lancer i had before. Plus it has much more go than the lancer.Actually pretty much anything beats a lancer except hyundai excels lol.

    I like the 307 you can see it is a newer design, but like you said i prefer the handling of 306, my parents 2.0ltr rallye is very fun to drive.

    I dont mind the seating position cause you can adjust the height of the seat in the XT i dont know about XR, but i have to agree on the pedals it was the only thing i did not like about the car, but now im used to it.

    Anyway i like the car, and i never read any of the car reviews cause you buy a car that you like not what someone else tells you to buy.

    Thats my 2 cents worth
    See ya
    Simon
    2002 Peugeot 206 XT 1.6 16v sold
    2004 Aegean Blue 206 GTI 180

    1983 Peugeot 505 STI

  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    if there were late model 504TI 5spds in australia it might be a different story
    Yeah, I have one or two of those. But I still think (though I can't possibly say 'I know!') that the DS would be a little nicer on the freeway.

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    for cruising on freeways how about comparing a 604 to a DS ?
    i have never driven nor been in a DS but i know for freeways the 604 would be hard to beat
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, that's probably a more appropriate comparison...

    Then there's the question of what the frontal shape of the Cit does for the course of the roos you clobber en route...

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    hell of a lot of sheetmetal on the front of a DS to moulded into a new shape when crossing the path of a roo than a 604 i'd say
    then again the DS might fair better as the roo will roll up the bonnet but then into the windscreen ouch
    i'd rather be in the 604
    might have to wangle a drive of a D one day
    see if i can manage to extract myself out of a pug into another french make
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I thought you'd be more at home in a Renault 12?

    My thoughts on the roo were similar... the marsupial skating up the bonnet and then who knows what?

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't think you could go past a CX for freeway cruising, especially 2400 and 2500 models.

    The aerodynamics of Cits like the DS and CX endow them with excellent high speed performance.

    Dave
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  14. #14
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    pugrambo:
    i'd say
    then again the DS might fair better as the roo will roll up the bonnet but then into the windscreen ouch
    I remember reading an ancient Citroen Club SA magazine, a DS owner crossing the pre bitumen sealed Nullarbor hit a roo. Little apparent damage was caused, but it did puncture the LHM reservoir, the rest of the trip was able to be continued on the bump stops. With a 604 I'd say the radiator may get punctured leaving the car disabled.
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    pugrambo:
    for cruising on freeways how about comparing a 604 to a DS ?
    i have never driven nor been in a DS but i know for freeways the 604 would be hard to beat
    Well really a DS/ID should be compared with it's contemporaries....which would probably be 60s cars....comparisons with 504s is even a little off as the DS/id's design is much older (55' or whatever vs 69'ish for 504)

    While the DS/ID were ahead of their time in aerodynamics, design, brakes, suspension, construction materials etc.....their engines and drivelines were really only in keeping with the period (cept certain gearboxes ).....they are not a particularly quiet car by 70's standards, nor fast/efficent or refined...
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 03:51 AM.

  16. #16
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    Even a 403 feels refined in the drivetrain when compared with a ID Citroen from the same era.

    Graham Wallis

  17. #17
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    DTwo:
    they are not a particularly quiet car by 70's standards, ...
    Geez, they must be bloody noisy then! Surely a DS23 in concourse condition would be quieter than that? Judging by the contempary road tests of the DS23, they seem to go very well indeed at freeway speeds (and much higher ).

    An early model 404 (with intake and exhaust manifold resonators) is quieter than most 1970s cars and probably alot of 1980s cars aswell.

    Dave

    <small>[ 17 April 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    You have to remember that in a D, as in a R16, you have the motor near the knees(albeit in the engine bay), not isolated at a much greater distance away. You also have to remember that there is a decade IIRC between the release of the D design and the 504, and an even greater distance between it and the 604 (which I didn't think had even been released before the D series went out of production.)
    Compare 504/604 with CX maybe, compare 403/4 with the D series.
    As for hitting roos, my experience from two years of living in central Qld was that they are entirely unpredictable in both terms of movement and of damage. Hit a pig or a cow or even a horse and you have a better idea where it's likely to land - with a roo so much is dependent upon the position they were in flight when contact was made.
    Bruce H

    Now 99 Xantia SX x2; 96 Xantia SX; 76 GS Club Estate x2; 76 GS Club; 74 GS Club; 88 VW T3 Reimo
    Before: AX Gti; BX 19TRi Estate; CX 2200 Super & Pallas; CX2400 Pallas; CX 2400ie Prestige auto; DS3 DStyle; GS Pallas; GSA Club; Xantia Image Estate; Xantia Exclusive; Xsara VTR R4; 1.4 Special Estate; Virage; R16TS

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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    davemcbean:
    DTwo:
    they are not a particularly quiet car by 70's standards, ...
    Geez, they must be bloody noisy then! Surely a DS23 in concourse condition would be quieter than that? Judging by the contempary road tests of the DS23, they seem to go very well indeed at freeway speeds (and much higher ).

    An early model 404 (with intake and exhaust manifold resonators) is quieter than most 1970s cars and probably alot of 1980s cars aswell.

    Dave
    The DS23 i drove had won a concours

    I didn't mean they are incredibly noisy or anything...or loud in the exhaust sense.

    The engines are pretty agricultural (ie rough, mechanical).....they don't purr like a kitten , they rock from side to side a lil and vibrate a fair bit when they are cold
    The engine is practically against the firewall in a DS.....which in turn was almost "in" the cabin ( r16 style...DS style )....which doesn't help the whole noise thang

    I think it all just adds to their character, ultimately they're a car that was (well) designed in the 50s.....

    There's nothing wrong with the way they cruised etc......but compared to...erm...say a brand new mk1 XJ6 (that was actually running well etc) a 70s DS23 Pallas was long in the tooth in the NVH stakes...

    either way that's just my opinion....there are people here who have owned/driven them for years that can probably provide a more informed view
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 03:52 AM.

  20. #20
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    BLK206:
    Justin, what do you think of the 206 XT then, remember you drive mine at the AFD.
    I feel the XT is put together better than the XR, and having the velour seats its nicer for cruising in. I have 1.6 manual and i will usually get 600-700km per tank of fuel which is better than i used to get out of a 1.5 ltr lancer i had before. Plus it has much more go than the lancer.Actually pretty much anything beats a lancer except hyundai excels lol.

    I like the 307 you can see it is a newer design, but like you said i prefer the handling of 306, my parents 2.0ltr rallye is very fun to drive.

    I dont mind the seating position cause you can adjust the height of the seat in the XT i dont know about XR, but i have to agree on the pedals it was the only thing i did not like about the car, but now im used to it.

    Anyway i like the car, and i never read any of the car reviews cause you buy a car that you like not what someone else tells you to buy.

    Thats my 2 cents worth
    See ya
    Simon
    Despite their flaws, I still like reading car reviews - we can't drive everything underneath the sun. You figure which one's are iffy, which ones you can trust. In all honesty, when buying a car, I won't really take too much notice of them, because aside from What Car, none of them really tell you about what the car's like to live with. Things like acceleration, comfort, handling, etc you can tell in a test drive - you can't discover cost of ownership, reliability or quality of customer care. My priorities differ, and I can't help but figure some magazines don't realise that in different classes of car, the weightings of individual criteria should vary.

    I found the fuel economy of the 206 1.6A was too similar to the 307 1.6A. At the same time, I picked it up with about 500km on the clock. Before I got the 307, I talked to another 206 1.6M XR owner who was really happy with the fuel economy, and I'm sure it's great. One thing to bear in mind is that the 206 actually has a higher cd than the 307, although the 307 does have a larger frontal area.

    The manual mates better with the 1.6 than the auto for sure, the only downer is the shift action which is a bit longer - I prefer the 306's shift. In any case, the 1.6M is a very zippy machine, a good deal faster than the old 1.5 Lancer for sure. My friends know what I think of Lancer - I learnt manual in one (1.8), they're really Milo tins on four wheels.

    In regards to quality, your car highlighted one of Peugeot's problems of inconsistent quality - the brakes were far better than those of the 1.6 XR I drove that had 4 wheel discs. Actually, even the 1.4XR with drums on the rear had better brakes than the 1.6XR, even though the 1.6 XR was fresh.

    Velour is definately nicer in the XT, makes it feel much better. The dash in the GTi & CC is much better than the XR, they have a softer, less shiny plastic. However, given the XR & XT are screwed together in the same factory, the quality of assembly would be the same. The cars just seem to miss out on fine detailing - for instance the armrests are moulded into the doors, but there's no foam or padding underneath the fabric - it's not nice resting your arm on something that transmits all the vibrations through (velour would naturally be much better).

    Seating. The XR has a height adjustable driver's seat, which I could use to some degree, before hitting the roof (and remember, being used to a 307, it feels strange when the roof lining is near your head). The problem with it is, like the little SEATs we used to have here, it's a very simple mechanism. As you increase seat height, the base angle changes, so at the top of the seat's height, you lose all underthigh support and it feels like you're going to slide off the seat. Although the XT seating material helps, IIRC the actual seats are the same as the XR, which aren't very shapely - but that wasn't the main issue. Pedals are smallish, but what gets is is that you can catch your foot on an unshrouded component underneath the dash near the steering column. If they had a steering column adjustable for reach, it'd solve my main problem overnight. Fortunately the 307 has a reach adjustable steering column.

    The 206 definately has its strong points, it's not a bad drive, especially with the 1.6M. Aside from the latest MPV style superminis, it has some of the best packaging in that class. Good looking too. But there are some points which the media exaggerates (eg. ride) and somethings which I would find harder to live with (after driving the car for a while, driving position does become an issue and I love quality). Given the progress that Peugeot has shown in perceived quality with the 307 over the 306, I'm sure the 207 will quell many of my concerns. I do worry about the accountant inspired rear suspension systems we're seeing though.

    Driving a 306 2.0M XSi recently reminded me how good they are, although I can't help but notice how each 306 I have driven has different feeling steering A great car to drive.

    Lucky Derek

    Regards,

    Justin

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    I thought you'd be more at home in a Renault 12?

    My thoughts on the roo were similar... the marsupial skating up the bonnet and then who knows what?
    don't get me wrong renault people i like them renaults
    but ray how could i be in a renault
    the closest i would get would maybe be a renault powered something (light 15 maybe just to upset the citroen folks ) but i have been a pug man for years
    renaults are nice but not me i'm afraid
    citroens are nice but they have me a bit worried at times

    BTW slightly off topic but i heard that the XU10J4RS 124KW engine was developed by citroen
    anyone know anymore about this ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course it's right that the 504 was a lot later in appearing than the Citroen... though the comparison isn't so bad because Citroen were always so far ahead of their time...

    I think the DS23 was about when the 504 came out, by the way (1968?)... but probably the 404 is a fairer comparison.

    Then again, the 404 engine technology (or the main points of engine architecture, anyway) were unchanged for the 504, only enlarged so that perhaps they were more likely to be less smooth.

    But they were way ahead of what was basically an uprated thirties design in the DS.

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Bruce H:
    You have to remember that in a D, as in a R16, you have the motor near the knees(albeit in the engine bay), not isolated at a much greater distance away. You also have to remember that there is a decade IIRC between the release of the D design and the 504, and an even greater distance between it and the 604 (which I didn't think had even been released before the D series went out of production.)
    Compare 504/604 with CX maybe, compare 403/4 with the D series.
    As for hitting roos, my experience from two years of living in central Qld was that they are entirely unpredictable in both terms of movement and of damage. Hit a pig or a cow or even a horse and you have a better idea where it's likely to land - with a roo so much is dependent upon the position they were in flight when contact was made.
    the 604 wasn't that far down the line from the 504
    the 604 was shown at the geneva motor show in 1975 and was on the boards for quite a while before that
    the 604 is still basically a 60's design with squared off edges
    the 604 runs a 504 floor pan and the engine bays between a 504 and 604 are the same
    when were the DS's sold ?
    BTW the 504 was on the market O/S in 68 but the first ones here were in 69 and there weren't very many and they were on the showroom floors next to 404's but with a price tag of $1000 more
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That's right, the 604's release was delayed...

    But not by that much. It was the 1973 fuel crisis that delayed it.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Bruce H's Avatar
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    I'm not a D expert, but IIRC they started in 1955 and finished production in 1975, with the occasional car out here being plated or sold in 1976. The 23 started in 1972. Some people I have heard reckon the 21 (1965-1972?) is smoother than the 23, but I wouldn't know as I've never driven the two of them.
    Bruce H

    Now 99 Xantia SX x2; 96 Xantia SX; 76 GS Club Estate x2; 76 GS Club; 74 GS Club; 88 VW T3 Reimo
    Before: AX Gti; BX 19TRi Estate; CX 2200 Super & Pallas; CX2400 Pallas; CX 2400ie Prestige auto; DS3 DStyle; GS Pallas; GSA Club; Xantia Image Estate; Xantia Exclusive; Xsara VTR R4; 1.4 Special Estate; Virage; R16TS

    Contact for the Australian Citroen GS GSA and Birotor Register http://australiancitroengsgsaandbiro...com/index.html

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