Knowing the rules
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  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Knowing the rules

    From time to time there are changes in the road rules... these are advertised in the press, on TV etc... there are news items about them.

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    Remember about three or four years ago there was a new one about merging and the lines on the road dictating what priority each car would have?

    If it was simply the end of a lane division line... that is a standard broken line between the lanes coming to an end as the road narrowed, priority belonged to the car that was ahead... no matter how far it was ahead... ie. even if it was a few inches.

    If there was a block-type line that followed, then you required a full car's length to be able to proceed ahead of the car in the other lane.

    Anyone notice how few people don't understand this rule?

    Become abusive towards those who do?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    interesting....i ve never thought that much about it....it seems to me that these days DRIVER BEHAVIOUR (when it comes to merging) is probably more important to most people than the rules...what i m trying to say is that I myself usually believe in being very curteous when it comes to the issue of merging....its one situation where judgement is so important. ie...i always try (if possible) to let the person trying to merge slot into traffic as seamlessly as possible and that includes me changing lanes at freeway entrances... so the MANY PROBLEMS that occur on the road in re. to merging are more an issue of CURTESY than LAW....Some people seem to be under the impression that the person on the RIGHT always has right of way and thats why you sometimes see people literraly coming to a complete STOP rather than MERGING (even the broken line isn t enough for them to realise that you dont have to stop)On the other hand you can also understand why that happens when you look at the number of PEOPLE that simply do not LIKE letting people MERGE (and that includes my sister in law- she is basically of the opinion: the toughest survive they can F8#2k themselves)I think that this situation is DISGUSTING especially downunder where we are known for a comaraderie and mateship....

    cheers
    DINO

    PS...when i SENSE that the driver next to me will not let me merge i usually do not even indicate...i just start drifting gently towards them and into their lane...i usually try to APPEAR as if i m not aware of them at all...Pretty soon they realise this GUY must be BLIND and they just about always back OFF and let me in (especially when in the jeep...)...ONCE i merge ...i can usually hear the honking and see the high beams...i then indicate very quickly and usually give them the finger...because thats what they deserve...
    PSS...the above is something i do and by no means do i recomend it and yes i can see how it might appear to be RUDE and impolite considering its done purposefully....but when there is 4000 cars ahead of the other guy and i m in the right then i enforce the law and the curtesy since they are oblivious to both...

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    LOL. and LOL again, wat both both of you guys have said sums up Sydney traffic about 30% of faults.
    Funny how when you renew your licence they are quick to check your eye sight and take your money, but never hand out a "recent roads amendment slip', or ask if you actually use that great sight of yourswhile driving........specially taxis.....
    my two francs
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    ps LOL at what both of you put up.
    ... ptui!

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    This reminds me of the days when I owned & operated a Driving School on the Gold Coast.
    Got a call from a guy who was a relief driver on a truck down from Mount Isa. The truck blew a motor as it left Brisbane so the owners decided to simply buy a new truck & offered this guy his annual holidays at the Coast whilst the truck was fixed. Turned iout that although he had been driving trucks & semis for a few years, he hadn't bothered getting a licence to do so, as a result the boss suggested he do so before returning, solo with the truck to the Isa.
    As soon as he'd driven a mile it was obvious he was an experienced driver, so it was a case of polishing him up on the rules & sit back & enjoy the scenery.
    We are coming down the Esplanade from Narrowneck, I'm sitting back, fag in mouth, feet on dash, perving at all & sundry when all of a sudden I hear screams of brakes & mouthfulls of abuse and look out as he merges straight through a "give way" sign onto the Gold Coast highway teaming with traffic. He's stood the bloody lot on their ears. "Geez mate; don't forget the right of way rule" sez I to which he responds "Where I come from, whoever's got the biggest vehicle's automatically got right of way!!" mallet mallet

    Just think; he's probably still driving a truck somewhere; sobering thought when you try to "enforce" your right of way. dance

    Alan S cheers!
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  5. #5
    UFO
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    Was probably that same prick who tried to run his truck over the top of us between Gympie and M'brgh one night when we were up there coupla years back. Because I had the audacity in the seemingly slow D to overtake him as we entered the south of Gympie (in an o/t lane section) he got the poops up (or popped more pills) and tried to be a boot ornament all the way to M'bgh.

    Had the D up to 140 in some sections and the bastard was still sticking. It was only corners where he would slow down and I could gradually get away from him while still managing to preserve us and the car.

    Deb was adamant that we would not stop cause the prick was just as likely to get out and thump us or worse! mallet
    Craig K
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  6. #6
    UFO
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    And some more:

    I agree with all that has been said. People do not make themselves aware of the road rules. As a driver it is your responsibility to maintain your knowledge, however as they never test you what point is there most would say.

    One of my biggest bugbears is bloody roundabouts. When will people learn how they are supposed to operate? You do not:

    1/Automatically give way to the dicks approaching the roundabout from their right
    2/Automatically have right of way over the traffic on their left
    3/Clearly indicate their direction intentions on approach (ie left indicator for left, right for right or Uee and none for straight on
    4/Indicate their intention to leave the roundabout

    The rules state you must give way to traffic already ON the roundabout. Now does this mean the round bit or the indicated approach islands to the roundabout.

    I could go on for hours about the stupid driving I see in the distances I cover, but hey, so long as you're not "speeding", drunk or seatbeltless, who gives a tinker's toss?!
    Craig K
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  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    dino:
    ....Some people seem to be under the impression that the person on the RIGHT always has right of way and thats why you sometimes see people literraly coming to a complete STOP rather than MERGING (even the broken line isn t enough for them to realise that you dont have to stop).....
    Yes, I struck one like this the other night... I had the law on my side and he kept on pushing up beside me... he had his passenger window open and I just said, "Don't you know the road rules, mate?" and he replied abusively about 'giving way to the right'!

    That went out with give way signs... essentially there has been no 'give way to the right' since 1974.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Remember about three or four years ago there was a new one about merging and the lines on the road dictating what priority each car would have?
    I don't think this rule exists in Victoria, does it? I've never heard of it before, and I try to keep on top of all the rules.

    One rule I'm confused on at the moment is giving way to cars doing U-turns. My driving instructor specifically taught me that when turning from a street out onto a divided road (the ones with openings in the median strip that let you turn right), give way to any cars that are doing U-turns. Just recently, I could have sworn I read somewhere (perhaps the RACV magazine) that it was the opposite, the car doing the U-turn had to give way to cars coming out of the adjacent street.

    I can't seem to find the article, but it doesn't sound right. All the U-turning cars I've come across always make the first move anyway, so if I went and tried pulling out first, our cars would most certainly kiss...

    Richard
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  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    U turns?

    No car doing a U turn is ever to impede the progress of any other car... that's a clear statement in the U turn rules in NSW, anyway.

    Did you know, by the way, that it's just as illegal to do a U turn over a broken line or a lane line as it is over an unbroken line?

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Fellow Victorians...

    For answers to any of your questions on road rules...
    <a href="http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrninte.nsf/alldocs/1AD8A6224437822ACA256C1A000E4995?OpenDocument&Area =[Online+Information+%26+Services" target="_blank">]Vicroads</a>
    Jason Judd
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  11. #11
    UFO
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    Ray Bell:
    U turns?

    No car doing a U turn is ever to impede the progress of any other car... that's a clear statement in the U turn rules in NSW, anyway.

    Did you know, by the way, that it's just as illegal to do a U turn over a broken line or a lane line as it is over an unbroken line?
    Huh??

    You mean that if there is a broken dividing line up the "centre" of the road, I cannot do a Uee over it? Where do these crazy ideas come from. Someone at the RTA is going nutso. dead
    Craig K
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Rule 38 (Making Turns) states:
    "A driver making a U-Turn must give way to ALL vehicles and pedestrians"
    Penalty: 5 Points
    Jason Judd
    <img border="0" alt="[Peugeot Emblem]" title="" src="graemlins/peugeot.gif" /> '85 505 GTi Executive
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  13. #13
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    UFO:
    The rules state you must give way to traffic already ON the roundabout. Now does this mean the round bit or the indicated approach islands to the roundabout.
    UFO,
    You are technically only supposed to give way (to the right) to those vehicles already in the roundabout. However, judging by the way alot of drivers use roundabouts as "chicanes", they seem to think it is their god given right to go through a round about at the fastest speed possible, provided there is no one to their right.

    Taking this into account, it would be a brave driver who legally entered a round-about with Fangio in his commodore bearing down on you at 60kph...

    The book says you can, the brain says no...

    It's unfortunately another one of those things that I am sure look really good on paper when round abouts were invented. Unfortunately in the real world, people don't drive with the type of courtesy and comon sense that is nescescary for round abouts to work well.

    I personally think one way to stop people flying through round about's would be to put speed humps on the entry to them. People would, (one would hope) have to slow down before entering the roundabout.

    Then again, I hate speed humps almost as much as I despise roundabouts.

  14. #14
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    Ray Bell:

    Remember about three or four years ago there was a new one about merging and the lines on the road dictating what priority each car would have?

    If it was simply the end of a lane division line... that is a standard broken line between the lanes coming to an end as the road narrowed, priority belonged to the car that was ahead... no matter how far it was ahead... ie. even if it was a few inches.

    If there was a block-type line that followed, then you required a full car's length to be able to proceed ahead of the car in the other lane.
    Is that the type of merge with a give-way stlye stoppage line at the end? I'm not sure I know exactly the type of lane end you mean??

    We don't have those in Vic.

    All we have here is a marked merge, with a broken line signalling the end of the (usually left) lane. In which case the lane ending must give way to other traffic.

    Or, unmarked mergings which have no lane markings, in which case, whoever is infront has right of way.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    hahahhah....SPEED BUMPS before round-abouts....WOW,,..where did you come up with that one sherlock...great idea....why dont we place speed bumps in front of round abouts and possibly a gate on all entry points as well...dont forget the gate keepers....and we can be hearded in like the catle....
    personally i love roundabouts...best thing since sliced bread (well not really but you know what i mean)...yes there are morons around but IF you are carefull enough they are pretty much bulletproof with usually great visibility which cant be said for all signaled intersections....your speed bumps idea is probably better for standard intersectins although even there i dont like the SAFETY perspective considering how POORLY most ABS systems perform over trhings like speed bumps...ever had to brake hard over a speed bump (in the wet)...ughhhhh
    better still how about putting some RECKLESS DRIVING CAMERAs on the roundabouts and finnaly catch and fine some REAL psychos....

    cheers

    dino

    just kidding mate....thought the s bump idea was really funny...

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course, most are aware that speed bumps taken too fast (as in when the driver is looking for oncoming traffic and doesn't notice they're there...) tend to take the wheels off the ground.

    That would be a smart thing to do at the entry to roundabouts...

    Though it probably wouldn't have bothered the woman I saw at Echuca the other week... carefully entered the roundabout to turn right, she's probably still wondering why those other people were going the wrong way.

    Your 'marked merge' would probably be describing what I'm talking about, mistareno... I think you'd better get the book out and check the rules. Most things that have come in the past twenty years have been under the umbrella of a uniform code for the country.

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    When the rules regarding stop signs and give way signs came in almost 30 years ago, there was another opportunity for the average driver to show his or her stupidity...

    Because stop signs became give signs with a requirement also to stop (prior to this, once you'd stopped you had the same rights as everyone else... the 'give way to the right' rule was in force), most found it too hard to understand so they simply decided to stop at every give way sign so there were fewer rules running round in their heads.

    For the same reason, many stop at roundabout entries today... they think they have to.

  18. #18
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    There's a roundabout at Essendon that has a pedestrian crossing on the approach. You check that the lights are green and go straight into the roundabout where you are cleaned up by people already on the roundabout who, of course have right of way!

    Graham Wallis

  19. #19
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    [quote]mistareno:
    I personally think one way to stop people flying through round about's would be to put speed humps on the entry to them. People would, (one would hope) have to slow down before entering the roundabout.
    What's wrong with flying through roundabouts? Like all driving, it depends on the traffic conditions whether or not it's safe. I do it all the time; but I've never impeded a car's progress that has right of way, and never gone close to causing an accident. I'm speaking about roundabouts with good visibility all round. After all, that's what French cars are made for..

    'Jackie' Stuart


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  20. #20
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I always remember a bus driver telling me about some place in NSW where he used to live.
    It was an old town that was appeared to have been designed by a local cocky acting as chief engineer which I don't think was all that uncommon in yeras gone by, and as a result all the gutters went across each intersection instead of disappearing down & grate & into the labrynth of underground stormwater pipes.
    In the days of horse & carts, this wasn't a big deal & the whole town drove in the knowledge that they existed.
    Enter a new Council complete with a few outtaTowners, ready to bring the place into the 20th Century. First budget for roads included a large amount for underground drainage as well as road restoration; ahh! Happy days, smooth roads & no annoying bumps as you approach each intersection.
    Suddenly the local rag was full of traffic accidents, even the odd fatality and the whole community was befuddled so called in the traffic authority who did a resume' of incidents over a couple of years. What suddenly changed to cause this? People didn't have to slow down at intersections anymore, none of them. Instead, they sped through & more often than not, met in the middle. mallet mallet
    The suggestion was, to revert back to the previous system which I understand they did; and they all lived happily ever after. dance dance

    Alan S
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  21. #21
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    [quote]Stuey:
    What's wrong with flying through roundabouts? Like all driving, it depends on the traffic conditions whether or not it's safe. I do it all the time; but I've never impeded a car's progress that has right of way, and never gone close to causing an accident. I'm speaking about roundabouts with good visibility all round. After all, that's what French cars are made for
    A big open round about with good visability probably doesn't apply.

    The problem being that unless you've actually entered the roundabout, no one else has to actually give way to you.

    example: Your approaching a roundabout with the intention of going straight through in the usual french "flick flack" manner, at say 60 kph. Unless you've actually entered the roundabout (ie: crossed the give way line), the little old lady at the roundabout entry to your left has every legal right to enter the roundabout right infront of you. This usualy results in your french flic flack ending in a french OHHHH!!-______!! (you get the idea) The law states that you only have to give way (to the right) to people already in the roundabout. Most people don't know this and simply assume that "give way to the right" apply's no matter what.....

    PS: Obviously the speed humps would be on the entry to the rounabout ie: 50 meters before the give way line. As yes, steering would be quite difficult with your tyres no longer touching the ground (although that would indicate that you were going to fast in the first place)

    PS: I didn't say I wanted the speed hump idea, I just said it would work!! If everybody knew the law regarding use of roundabouts, they would work really well.(and there are many types of speed humps/raised roads)

  22. #22
    nJm
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    [quote]Stuey:
    mistareno:
    I personally think one way to stop people flying through round about's would be to put speed humps on the entry to them. People would, (one would hope) have to slow down before entering the roundabout.
    What's wrong with flying through roundabouts? Like all driving, it depends on the traffic conditions whether or not it's safe. I do it all the time; but I've never impeded a car's progress that has right of way, and never gone close to causing an accident. I'm speaking about roundabouts with good visibility all round. After all, that's what French cars are made for..

    'Jackie' Stuart
    I was going to say something similar I tend to take traffic islands etc quite quickly if it is clear. There is a round a bout just up the road from my house and it has shocking visability, and every time I approach it I drop down to 2nd and almost come to a stop to check, as you can never see past trees to see if anyone else is coming the other way. Small suburban round a bouts I take slowly, but there are some nice large ones on the major roads that head down to the Mornington Peninsular from Melbourne, which I tend to take quickly (they are essentially in a 100 zone, although the actual speed limit drops to 40 just before you get to the round a bout. I'm sure many families in their Nissan Patrols have looked on in shock or amusment at this funny silver french car leaning heavily on one side as it gets through the bend clown

    As for speed humps, well all I can say is a 505 can cope with the more gentle ones at 80km/h (no, I've NEVER EVER done that before... mallet ) and on the more vicious ones in my street 50km/h is ok, although everything in the boot shifts around, so I tend to take them at about 40. Really, a 'five oh' pug is like owning a Subaru Outback or other softroader... dance

    EDIT: but do not get the impression I'm a hoon or anything. I only utilise the french qualities of my car if there is extremely good visability. If in doubt, don't approve

    <small>[ 08 February 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
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  23. #23
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    I dont know about other states, but in victoria they have retro-fitted round abouts to what were once normal intersections. They suck, no visibility what so ever.

    I know the big double lane roundabouts are a different kettle of fish as you can see for 200m each way. These can be quite entertaining and still safe. Were luck, on the big round abouts out my way they just leave the speed limit at 80 or 100kph....yipppeeee

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    yes...misterano i can see how the bumps 50 meters before a round about possibly could work...i think when you mentioned them eralier my mind imagined them right at the round about which i m sure you can understand would be strange to have and possibly dangerous...
    re: speeding through round about...well...obviously the speed is dictated by the size of the roundabout and where the exit points are but in a standard suburban round
    about (ie basic two way) i challange anybody (i know i drive a 205 gti->short wheelbase)to say they can easily go through them at 60kmph...you might be able to pull it OFF but YOUR CAR WOULD BE PERFORMING CLOSE TO ITS LIMIT...CHECK your speedo next time you are going (what you believe to be 60kmh and see what you r really moving at....JUST MAKE SURE YOU DONT CRASH...it reaminds me of a guy who claimed he could go through a standard left turn (signaled intersection) at 80kmh...in his porsche.....guy was full of it....he didn t realise the speedo was not giving correct reading as the barkes outperformed speedo reading...speed guages are almost always to slow to catch up...so i d say get through a small round about at about 40kmh and you d still feel some speed....

    PS...i have taken some small roundabouts at some REALLY STUPID speeds (about 60kmh) but its probably one of the most STUPID THINGS TO DO...because...the council usually makes sure that THERE IS a TREE or A POWERPOLE that ll surelly be the first thing you hit (sideways)if you loose the car...

    so...i d say ONE SHOULD NEVER REALLY EXCEED the recommended speed limits near a round about no mater how much fun it might be just in case there is another person (coming from the left) with the same idea....happened to me when i went through a bout with my golf...guy came from the left like a cyclone in his sle...the only thing that saved me from him hitting my rear left quarter was a quick
    left TWITCH and a correction..., although that was (even though i was in the right) my fault as it was night and my golf lights were piss poor...he probably didn t even see me...

    cheers
    dino

  25. #25
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    [quote]Stuey:
    What's wrong with flying through roundabouts? Like all driving, it depends on the traffic conditions whether or not it's safe. I do it all the time; but I've never impeded a car's progress that has right of way, and never gone close to causing an accident. I'm speaking about roundabouts with good visibility all round. After all, that's what French cars are made for..

    'Jackie' Stuart
    [quote] Originally posted by Dino
    <strong>
    so...i d say ONE SHOULD NEVER REALLY EXCEED the recommended speed limits near a round about no mater how much fun it might be just in case there is another person (coming from the left) with the same idea....happened to me when i went through a bout with my golf...guy came from the left like a cyclone in his sle...the only thing that saved me from him hitting my rear left quarter was a quick
    left TWITCH and a correction..., although that was (even though i was in the right) my fault as it was night and my golf lights were piss poor...he probably didn t even see me...
    Stuey,Whats wrong with flying through roundabouts??

    Ask Dino, and he was a lucky example...

    If you are "flying" through any corner, you are commited to a course of action. Most people who are involved in an accident think that what they are doing (or about to do) is safe.
    What they fail to realise is that there are so many variables on the road that commiting to a corner at a speed nearing the cars limits is asking for trouble.

    STUEY, I will give you a simple scenario that I want you to answer honestly.

    It is early Sunday morning, you are entering a familiar, fairly open, good visibilty, 1 lane (each way) round about. You approach with the intention of going straight through. You see no traffic on any road leading up to the roundabout, and decide you are going to fly through. As you hit the first apex on entry at, lets say 50kph (60kph zone) you see a normal 50kg bag Bag of Cement that has fallen of the back of a truck into your line o exit . What do you do??

    You are going way to fast to stop in time.

    You could not see the obect on entry due to the keep left signs and center island.

    If you swerve (natural instinct) you may lose control and hit one of the power polls that DINO so acurately stated are usually in the worst possible spot.

    Hit the bag of cement, rip out the front end and hit the power poll anyway.

    Now imagine that bag of cement is a small child..

    I think you get the picture....
    A public road is full of so many unimaginabe variables from day to day, not just car related.
    This is the fundaental reason that road rules are designed for the lowest common denominator.
    Please don't make yourself the lowest common denominator. Drive with plenty of time, distance and grip in reserve, and on any road always expect the absolute worst.

    Try this simple excecise that anyone can do nearly anywhere and get back to me.

    Next time your driving in a spirited manner (or a passenger), just imagine the absolute worst case scenario greeting you around the next corner. Then honestly try to imagine what would have happened had your imagined event occured.... I have done it as a passenger in friends cars and it opens a pandoras box on why we need to try to keep the "fun" element on the tracks, as boring as that may make driving.

    <small>[ 08 February 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

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