solenoid operated valves
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  1. #1
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    solenoid operated valves

    ok guys
    time to pick some brains
    i have been toying with this idea for many many years but have never seem to come by an answer as to why it can't be achieved
    think about instead of having a camshft to open and close all those wonderfull valves in our engines why can't solenoids be used to do the same job ?
    and if you think about it you can set the valve timing whatever way you want with a simple program
    i'm sure with the amount of people on this forum there will be quite a few great ideas
    c'mon guys

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Work is going on in F1 along these lines, in fact, Renault was supposed to be close to having it sorted.

    But it's not appeared yet.

    The biggest advantage would obviously be infinitely variable valve timing.

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the infinite valve timing is what i am aiming at
    we don't need then to hunt around for camshafts or worry about rocker angles or anything like that
    camshaft people would not be happy about it and i realise that timing covers would be a little taller than they are at present but if they are the only downsides then what the heck
    i remember talking about doing this 15 years ago but all i ever got from people was "nah not possible mate"
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  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Check the Technical Forum on Atlas F1 and use search there for discussion on the topic.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    <span>Its been done... just not in <span class=ResizableText0>combustion</span> <span class=ResizableText0>production</span>
    motor, F1 guys are/were fiddling with this also similar things can be found on <span class=ResizableText0>industrial</span> motors from such things as <span class=ResizableText0>compresing</span> water vapour, and some steam <span class=ResizableText0>generators</span> have <span class=ResizableText0>electronic</span> valves, but dont operate at the speeds engines do, more like 300-1000 rpm, but thats a (rpm) guess. I used to service an old clayton steam genarator with such a setup, and some big ships control their <span class=ResizableText0>generators</span> insuch a manor But you do have a point,
    problem lies in the nature of the coils as field <span class=ResizableText0>generation</span> (ie, how long it takes the <span class=ResizableText0>elctricity</span> to build up enough energy to fully field the coil, thus open the v/v). this time period of micro seconds is hard to control and varies from solenoid to solenoid and each time the solenoid operates. But with time and money i cant see why an all-plastic head with very few moving parts canot be made. Think about the infinate varaiable timming and the <span class=ResizableText0>power/efficincy</span> that opens up!!! also no oil needed
    up top and lot less weight and moving <span class=ResizableText0>parts........ouhhh</span> pugrambo you ha opended a ca of worms!lol great idea. Xq ps i have been also told that the F1 guys are working on a rotary - valve system, were a disc with a hole spins off-set to the opening of the port and is moved by fast variable DC motors, again variable timming and so much more room to learn from..... by the way rumor has it, this is from the guys that develop the F1 renault <span class=ResizableText0>engines...</span></span>
    sorry i can now see in the time it took me to write the above, you guy have mentioned most of my points.

    <small>[ 25 January 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: xqisid ]</small>
    ... ptui!

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Rotary valves have big issues with port shapes, but at least you could go back to one inlet and one exhaust port per cylinder with them.

    How would plastic heads change things?

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    <span><span class=ResizableText0>
    Originally</span> posted by Ray Bell: <span class=ResizableText0><strong>Rotary</span> valves have big issues
    with port shapes, but at least you could go back to one inlet and one exhaust port per cylinder with them. How would plastic heads change <span class=ResizableText0>things?
    </span> </span>
    These rotary valves are tiny and tak up the whole inlet/ outle track but i avn't heard much flate from my relative who works for Swift engineering,
    Plastic head, lighter, smaller, more tolerant, dosn't require oil, water. cheap etc, but down side is all that comprimses relibility.
    Xq

    ps, i can't back it but i have heard of several ceramic-plastic components in hand guns that use solenoid valves to shift air and fire the projectile ....one of those so and so things.
    ... ptui!

  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Then there's the issue of combustion chamber shape...

    Rotary valves have downsides in this area too.

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    rotary valves were used back in the 60's
    i have seen a holden grey engine with a rotary valve head fitted
    the thing was then is that they couldn't get it to seal and or lubricate good enough to run it in a production car
    the one i know of is used in drag racing by a school teacher from bowral
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  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    One was also run in the car entered by Dud Dansie in the Australian Grand Prix of 1961.

    It was built in South Australia and I think others were used in boats. The guy who made them was named Dunstan...

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    also most solenoids use less than 12V to operate them (this i learnt from my trade)
    basically all you would need is a PLC to control them with and have it programmed for different circumstances
    just think driving around in economy mode and then a day at wakefield comes up and all you need to do is flick the switch over to race mode
    perfect situation to have power and economy at the same time
    also the emisions testers would never be able to pick up that your car can run outside the emisions limit
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  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    so c'mon guys
    how possible would it be to do it to a road going froggy ?
    i have been searching around on and off today after ideas on how to set up and programme a PLC for the valve timing
    apparently they aren't that hard to do (i have never really played with them)
    also it's a matter of getting solenoids to react fast enough for their intended purpose which i can't see bieng a problem
    also you wouldn't need the high poundage valve springs that are used with camshaft's
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Or alternativly just use a Wankel rotary and forget about valves altogether....

    But as for solanoid operated valves, I'm pretty sure the McLaren F1 cars have been using them for a while. They had some teething troubles (when the electrics go, the motor tends to shut down in a hurry), but they went like stink out of the box apperently, and were bloody good once reliability was sorted.

    Renault is already developing them for use in production cars, as they will allow easy acheivement of emmision targets, and will be a lot cheaper to make (no oil supply, cams, bearings for cam, rockers, drive belts/chains, etc etc) in the long run. And more reliable.
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  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I assure you, they are not in use in F1 yet.

    Not in McLaren, not in Renault (who were most advanced, it seems, with the technology), not with anyone.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    pugrambo:
    rotary valves were used back in the 60's
    i have seen a holden grey engine with a rotary valve head fitted
    the thing was then is that they couldn't get it to seal and or lubricate good enough to run it in a production car
    the one i know of is used in drag racing by a school teacher from bowral
    I think rotary valves were a development from the 1930s (somebody correct me on this?). The current MV Agusta motorbike uses rotary valves.
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  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Two stroke of four stroke?

    I wouldn't be surprised if rotary valves go back to the 1890s... that doesn't say they will overcome the port size and shape issues or the combustion chamber shape problem

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    Or alternativly just use a Wankel rotary and forget about valves altogether....

    But as for solanoid operated valves, I'm pretty sure the McLaren F1 cars have been using them for a while. They had some teething troubles (when the electrics go, the motor tends to shut down in a hurry), but they went like stink out of the box apperently, and were bloody good once reliability was sorted.

    Renault is already developing them for use in production cars, as they will allow easy acheivement of emmision targets, and will be a lot cheaper to make (no oil supply, cams, bearings for cam, rockers, drive belts/chains, etc etc) in the long run. And more reliable.
    No they don't use solenoid operating valves in F1 cars. They still use cam lobes to open the valves but use pneumatics rather than mechanical springs to close them. I don't know much about how BMW's Valvetronic works but from what I have heard, it is unsuitable for powerful applications such as racing - which is why it is only available for the 318.
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  18. #18
    rek
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    1000+ Posts rek's Avatar
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    BMW Valvetronic does allow infinitely variable valve timing and lift. It works through a series of cogs and eccentric gears, and as such has a HEAP of internal friction and moving parts that make it unsuitable for high-RPM applications. The new low-end 3-series use it, as do a few of the new engines in the 7-series.

    One further advantage of Valvetronic is that you can do away with the traditional throttle butterfly, and control engine breathing using just the valves.

    Modern F1 engines use pneumatic valvetrains (pioneered by Renault IIRC.) These are superior to normal springs as they operate faster, allowing the engines to rev higher without suffering from valve float/bounce.

    There have been rumours all about the F1 circus about solenoid-driven valves, but the top engine development managers have said it's simply not a viable option just yet.

    <small>[ 25 January 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: rek ]</small>
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  19. #19
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Further to this... Caterpilla have developed hydrauliclly operated valves for their smaller engines. It is still in early development stage, but the technology has been licenced to GM and is used in the diesel variants of the Rodeo.

    I don't know too much more about though.
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  20. #20
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    Strange choice of motor for it...low max. revs and no throttle to reduce efficiency. I wonder what the benefits are.

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  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    caterpilla also use oil pressure to operate the injectors in their huey (sp?) engines as well
    these engines are extremely good engines but if they break down don't forget your laptop
    bieng typical CAT though they really need to catch up with other makes and give their machines a few more horses
    oh and i love their stick steer range of loaders
    i should stop now
    i have operated too many machines over the years
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  22. #22
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    Check out the link below for an article on Renaults electronic valve-train progress.

    The problems are many but the advantages may be worth it..

    <a href="http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs_03-00/03.htm" target="_blank">web page</a>

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