LPG and Racing???
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  1. #1
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    mistareno's Avatar
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    LPG and Racing???

    Can anyone give a definative answer on what competition (CAMS) restrictions (if any) are placed on a car that runs on LPG??? Does ay one have a 2003sup-regs book handy??

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Schedule G- Fuel 6-15,2.2
    LPG. The fuel must be a commercial LPG being a mix of propane & butane, of a type which is dispensed from a service station pump. Where a vehicle utilises LPG, a sign in the form of white letters "LPG" on a red reflective background, as per drawing G-1 must be placed immediately to the left and centralised vertically to all competition numbers.
    Red b/ground L 150mm x H 100mm (guess not actually stated)
    White letters 40mm high.
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    <small>[ 05 April 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It's a long time since anyone did run it... but it was run in a Falcon XB or XC coupe when they were current. It might have been Jim Keogh, but I'd have to check to say for sure.

    Certainly it was white and blue. Only ran at Sandown, from memory.

    Keith Williams once ran a Holden HD X2 on something unusual... but I don't think it was LPG... I'd have to look that up too.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Do you have any more details about the engine set-up of the cars?

    Stikes me as being abit weird running LPG under race conditions?

  5. #5
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    Aaron:
    Do you have any more details about the engine set-up of the cars?

    Stikes me as being abit weird running LPG under race conditions?
    Just doing a bit of re-con on a future project.

    Why does everyone seem to think LPG is such a bad fuel?
    A properly tuned (cam, ignition curve, fuel mixture, compression) will yeild just as much, if not more power than a petrol equivilent.
    What you lose in it's slightly lower energy content, you can certainly pick up (and then some usually) in the fact that it has a much higher octane rating (102) which allows a higher compression ratio with more ignition advance.
    Secondly, It doesent leave the same carbon deposits in the engine, and the fact that it is a 'dry' fuel doesn't really matter these days as most engines can be rebuilt with hardened valve seats.
    Due to it simple nature of metering, it usually results in less low restriction than a carb, which releases more power still.
    Last but not least, with no pollution gear reqd..The EPA can eat your shorts...

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Pretty smart for a copper...

    What did you do in your previous life?

  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Pretty smart for a copper...

    What did you do in your previous life?
    If I was a member of the police force I might find the above statement a bit of an insult. Is this really necessary?
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There's a 428 Cobra running LPG only in the CSCA Supersprints. Like what's already been said, most people don't understand the fuel, thus bag it in ignorance. Its octane rating depends on the butane/propane mix, and typically varies 100-110. It has an energy value approx. 80% of petrol, so you use 20% more. Methonal in comparison, has an energy value 50% of petrol, so you use twice as much. Yet methonal is a more popular fuel! LPG is very dry, so you need bronze guides and hardened seats for long engine life. It requires a very different advance curve to petrol, and typically needs 20 deg. @ 1000 with a maximum of 28 deg. It also needs approx. 11:1 CR depending on the chamber design. So if you tried to run a dual fuel car on these parameters it would be a disaster. Thus most cars are tunded for petrol as their primary fuel, and LPG comes a poor second. It's possible a buy a dual curve advance module that changes the curve depending on the chosen fuel. Some cam grinders specify a very mild cam for LPG, but all it does is close the inlet valve early, to maximise compression pressure. It's better to do it with real static compression, then run the cam of your choice. I've had three vehicles with LPG and have learnt by mistakes, as it was difficult to find good operators 15 years ago. The most successfull vehicle was a high compression 351 with the right advance curve and a sporty cam. Petrol was only a backup fuel.

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  9. #9
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    Simon:
    Ray Bell:
    Pretty smart for a copper...

    What did you do in your previous life?
    If I was a member of the police force I might find the above statement a bit of an insult. Is this really necessary?
    Compared to some of me and Ray's previous post's it positively diplomatic....

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    My mate runs a RX3 coupe(808) 13B PP on LPG as a club car, the more important issues with CAMS are the TANK and MOUNTING and LOCATION of it in the car...ever seen/heard about a compressed tank in a big shunt!!!Kaboom..
    Nothing wrong with LPG, nor fuel, just not popular.
    Xq
    ... ptui!

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    street machine has done a few articles on LPG and has featured a few lpg cars...i never thought much of lpg before (because like many i was pretty clueless about it) but after reading some articles on it i definitely have more respect for it now...if u d like i might be able to dig some of them out (although sadly i own hundreds in a very unorganised manner)...might be able to send them out as long as your interest is in big c i engines...

    cheers
    dino

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Besides what i've posted from the CAMS Manual previously the only other reference is in schedule N pt 1, 2.2 & states the maximum tank size ie. petrol or LPG according to engine capacity for cars built after 1974 to be used in state level or above competition no reference to tank position is given under the heading LPG.
    I assume this to be covered under general NCR's for the particular class of vehicle.
    spanner crank it up another turn Richard
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Simon
    <strong>If I was a member of the police force I might find the above statement a bit of an insult. Is this really necessary?
    I don't really think that mistareno would have or should have... it certainly wouldn't have affected me to have someone agree with me in the same way.

    <small>[ 08 April 2003, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Ray Bell ]</small>

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    u might or may not find this link usefull...interesting reading for a novice anyway...:

    <a href="http://www.ipravic.com.au/schedules.doc" target="_blank">http://www.ipravic.com.au/schedules.doc</a>

    its pdf but very smalland will download in a couple minutes(maybe less)...
    does mention that fuel fillers must not protrude from the body (which may affect lpg install)..most of it applys to standar fuels but i d assume the same rules in regards to structural safety would have to apply to lpg..interesting read anyway..hope it helps..

    cheers
    dino

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ps..most fuel tank information is towards the bottom of the page...

    cheers
    dino

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Intreresting reading perhaps.
    However it obviously not from the 2003 CAMS Bible, as LPG is not mentioned under fuel. I have listed the only 2 references to LPG in the index of CAMS manual these being Schedule G 2.2 and schedule N part 1 2.1 & 2.2

    <small>[ 08 April 2003, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Damien Gardner ]</small>
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Damien Gardner:
    Besides what i've posted from the CAMS Manual previously the only other reference is in schedule N pt 1, 2.2 & states the maximum tank size ie. petrol or LPG according to engine capacity for cars built after 1974 to be used in state level or above competition no reference to tank position is given under the heading LPG.
    I assume this to be covered under general NCR's for the particular class of vehicle.
    spanner crank it up another turn Richard
    Cheers for that richard, i wasn't 100%, just ever time my mates RX3 is up for scruteneering they always like to look at the mounting points and filler, etc. Im just assuming that this is obviously for safety????
    Xq
    ... ptui!

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