Now try it without ABS, EBD, ESP, EBA ...
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Default Now try it without ABS, EBD, ESP, EBA ...

    "Many drivers are blithely unaware of the hi-tech safety devices fitted to modern cars that silently keep them from danger."
    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...973418,00.html

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    and to think the only reason i dont have a car with all those gadgets is cause i cant afford to fix them when the break down

    who knew i was getting a btter driver eduation out of it


    ok well i secrtely knew i was getting a better eduction from it. Is supprising even if those figures thoey quoted are half true..

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  3. #3
    1075.6 SamR's Avatar
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    Interesting article. A few errors that I picked up (unless I'm wrong )
    What's with the torque sensing LSD in the S2000 automatically reducing torque if it senses the car is about to skid? I thought they transferred torque to the wheel with most traction

    The article also said: "Modern cars not only have stability and traction control, they also have better tyres, better suspension and overall dynamics." I wonder if the tested BMW had "old" tyres on it?

    I know the 205 GTi doesn't have the "safest dynamics" (Lift off oversteer ) But other than that, I reckon it's dynamics are far ahead of our '99 model Pulsar. I'd much rather be able to drive around a corner, than understeer off the road.
    I think drivers should be given better training and cars should be less reliant on electronic aids to solve handling deficiencies. My
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  4. #4
    Tadpole Mackers's Avatar
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    Icon7

    A very salutary read, which gives a feeling of smugness to someone who likes to wrestle with a 1954 Light 15 at weekends. No ABS or traction control there!

  5. #5
    Member Pugknut's Avatar
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    Default Ridiculous

    What a ridiculous set of conclusions to be drawn from this "test". What the tests showed was that:

    a. Modern cars with these devices are safer and rely less on the skill of the driver than old cars.
    b. an old BMW can't change lanes under brakes in the wet....Where was the driver who had been trained in Cadence braking who managed to execute this manoeuvre successfully?
    c. Some people are confused by the Acronyms used in Automotive systems (um, so what?) and don't know how they work. I bet most people don't know how their microwaves work either.

    I love my old cars without any of the driver assist technologies, but I know which car I'd rather have everyone else driving.....

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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers
    A very salutary read, which gives a feeling of smugness to someone who likes to wrestle with a 1954 Light 15 at weekends. No ABS or traction control there!
    Or a 1973 porsche 911 ehheehe

    Personally I can't stand ABS, My BMer (even though it is over 13 years old, has got ABS) is the first car I have owned with ABS (My 206 didn't have it) and it is f*cking AWFUL!!! The ABS Kicks in too soon, I mean my brakes and tyres still have more stopping power left in them when it suddenly kicks in, pretty much every single corner I brake for (when I am giving it some serious stick of course) the bloody ABS kicks in. And you can forget about mid corner left foot braking with ABS. The only good thing is my pedals are offset, so unlike the pug I can heel and toe with much greater ease

    I am getting an engineers report and then getting ABS removed when I upgrade to my new Calipers and discs.

    Whilst I think ABS and ESP are a great idea, especially for wet roads and so on, but I think it should be an option to leave it off as well (when you buy from the dealer) what about the poor people who live out in the Country and have to drive on dirt and gravel roads, or people who know the different braking techniques and know how to effectivley brake. Whilst ESP can be turned off in most cars, you can't bloody turn ABS off!!

    rant over
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  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n b j
    Or a 1973 porsche 911 ehheehe

    Personally I can't stand ABS, My BMer (even though it is over 13 years old, has got ABS) is the first car I have owned with ABS (My 206 didn't have it) and it is f*cking AWFUL!!! The ABS Kicks in too soon, I mean my brakes and tyres still have more stopping power left in them when it suddenly kicks in, pretty much every single corner I brake for (when I am giving it some serious stick of course) the bloody ABS kicks in. And you can forget about mid corner left foot braking with ABS. The only good thing is my pedals are offset, so unlike the pug I can heel and toe with much greater ease

    I am getting an engineers report and then getting ABS removed when I upgrade to my new Calipers and discs.

    Whilst I think ABS and ESP are a great idea, especially for wet roads and so on, but I think it should be an option to leave it off as well (when you buy from the dealer) what about the poor people who live out in the Country and have to drive on dirt and gravel roads, or people who know the different braking techniques and know how to effectivley brake. Whilst ESP can be turned off in most cars, you can't bloody turn ABS off!!

    rant over
    my
    There must be a wheel skidding for the ABS to be kicking in. Simply remove it's fuse, or unplug a wheel sensor if you want to try it with no ABS (If you unplug a sensor the ABS computer will shut itself down as there is obviously a problem somewhere).

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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    There must be a wheel skidding for the ABS to be kicking in. Simply remove it's fuse, or unplug a wheel sensor if you want to try it with no ABS (If you unplug a sensor the ABS computer will shut itself down as there is obviously a problem somewhere).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Thanks Shane.

    Yeah it happens on a bumpy or uneven road surface, so I dare say it kicks in on the most minor of minor skids.

    I will see if it can be adjusted.
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  9. #9
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    you have to be careful with removing the abs fuse, as some cars have that fuse linked to other things also... i remember a wheels audi test where they did that and it affected the rear brakes and something else i can't remember it was about 5 years ago...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by n b j
    Or a 1973 porsche 911 ehheehe
    Or a 5Turbo2
    i'm sooo happy not to have all those things (cept the xenons...!)

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugknut
    I bet most people don't know how their microwaves work either.

    Good call.
    I know of peolple that still cant program their VCR, so they go and buy a Hard-Disk recorder..... 'goodonya mate thats using your head' i say to em. - Chris
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    I am glad Ive spent most of my driving time behind the wheel of a 504. There are no such things as abs or esp...and to come to think of it, I don't really want them. In a 504 you have the brake and the accelerator, your brain makes the decisions not some computer under the bonnet and hopefully it tell's you to push the right pedal for the right situation.
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    Personally I can't stand ABS, My BMer (even though it is over 13 years old, has got ABS) is the first car I have owned with ABS (My 206 didn't have it) and it is f*cking AWFUL!!! The ABS Kicks in too soon, I mean my brakes and tyres still have more stopping power left in them when it suddenly kicks in, pretty much every single corner I brake for (when I am giving it some serious stick of course) the bloody ABS kicks in. And you can forget about mid corner left foot braking with ABS. The only good thing is my pedals are offset, so unlike the pug I can heel and toe with much greater ease
    I agree ABS really takes alot of skill out of driving a car well. I specifically did not install the ABS when i did my conversion because i had no real need for it...however i now realise in hindsight that it is a good "insurance policy"

    Id never really locked up the brakes on my car before the brakes were fantastic and even on Phillip island threshold braking was easy and effective.

    Its when u DONT expect to brake is when u need it most. When i was up in the mountains giving the car a flogging i had crappy continental tyres on....went over a uneven and rough section of road and locked up without even realising until after it had happened.

    I used to say to myself ABS is crap why woukd you need that blah blah blah but in cases like that i really wish i had of had it.

    On the race track i think its unecesary but on the road and uneven roads of aust and the constantly changing conditions ABS can really show its worth.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts mr bern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL
    you have to be careful with removing the abs fuse, as some cars have that fuse linked to other things also... i remember a wheels audi test where they did that and it affected the rear brakes and something else i can't remember ...
    I believe it's called your "insurance cover".

    This quote from an early "TruthAboutCars" column needs an outing again:

    ... no road review of a modern car would be complete without the tester switching off the drivers' aid(s) and seeing what happens at the limit. Casual references to "a whiff of opposite lock bringing things under control" lead performance-oriented readers to think it's more than OK to switch off the car's central nervous system. It's a badge of honour! REAL men don't need DSC, PSM or ESP! When I drive down the Welsh roads favoured by UK car reviewers, I half expect to encounter a road sign showing the letters ABS in a red circle with a line crossed through it.

    This is dangerous machismo. Today's driver's aids are an absolute godsend for the non-professional. They should never be switched off outside of a racetrack. Granted, early versions were passion killers. The previous shape 500 SL was one of the first cars equipped with Mercedes’ ESP (Electronic Stability Program). It reacted to a potential spin by completely shutting down the engine room -- at the precise moment when you needed more power. Modern driving aids are far less intrusive. The best do nothing more than stop you from killing yourself. So you can do what you love best: push hard. I challenge any amateur to drive a BMW M5 at speed without its Bavarian brain bailing them out of serious trouble.

    Of course, there are limits to how much "assistance" any driver needs, or wants. ... But there’s still a lot of debate about the utility of more subtle systems. EBA (Emergency Brakes Assist) decides whether you want to stop, REALLY stop or OH MY GOD WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE! Stop. The computer applies additional braking as and when it thinks you’re not putting in enough effort into the job. Understandably, the idea rankles sporting drivers. Then saves their life.
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