Air con need regassing?
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Icon13 Air con need regassing?

    If it does, don't mess about getting it done as I was told yesterday that there's a supposed "Worldwide shortage" on R134a and no news on when it will end.
    It seems that that they are also being cagey on if, or by how much (to be more accurate) it will be to buy when it does return, so if you're thinking of getting the air/con topped up, be quick while there's still a bit around.
    Last time I struck this was a few years ago with R-12 and when it came back it was double priced, so based on that experience, I'd suggest get in now and get it done.


    Alan S

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    Member radioactiveman's Avatar
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    A price rise, and just in time for summer too. Who would've thought.

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radioactiveman
    A price rise, and just in time for summer too. Who would've thought.
    Yes, I get the feeling I've been here before. This is a return to the 70s and 80s when CIG had a monopoly on R12 supplies. Also reminds any Queenslander of the regular Brewery strikes every Christmas in the same era.


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    Hi, why not just switch to HR 12, you know, the hydrocarbon stuff. Works just as well if not better and is cheap. The 134a thing is a bit of balony anyway as we will see when they promote the newer gases.
    The risk of fire is a bit of a furfy (theoretically possible but with the small quantities used i donj't think it is a problem. In any case hydrocarbon does not produce the toxic gases 134a produces in case of fire).
    No, i don't sell HR12 nor do i receive commisions.
    Like to be proved wrong.
    JoBo

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    It would be nice if there was a data sheet available so that the compatability of oils, seals and "O" rings as well as TX valves, compressors and working pressures with all these various gases that keep popping up, otherwise there's always the chance that someone is going to destroy a system if it's not all proven totally compatable.

    Alan S
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    Fellow Frogger! boodek's Avatar
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    There's a refrigerant I use as a 134a replacement called SP34E - a blend which in auto air applications is supposed to perform better than the former (the figures supplied by the maufacturer show it has properties which are closer to R12 than 134a is) and, the best part, is compatible with both poly and mineral oils which means it is a real drop in replacement for R12. I buy it for about $13 a kilo and use it for my medium temp stuff, and it mixes well with 134a.
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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Alan R123, is cheap and readily available and meets all 134 specs no? - Chris
    ... ptui!

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    Quote Originally Posted by boodek
    There's a refrigerant I use as a 134a replacement called SP34E - a blend which in auto air applications is supposed to perform better than the former (the figures supplied by the maufacturer show it has properties which are closer to R12 than 134a is) and, the best part, is compatible with both poly and mineral oils which means it is a real drop in replacement for R12. I buy it for about $13 a kilo and use it for my medium temp stuff, and it mixes well with 134a.
    If memory serves SP34E is a very similar blend to 134a. But i was also told by a refrigeration guy that he uses it to top up car systems with it as well as his mother's fridge. To buy SP34E you need a licence.

    www. hychill.com in their booklet they state that HR12 is a straight replacment for R12, R22, HFC 134a without components or oils having to be changed. Boiling points at 20 deg. C: R12 -29.7deg. C.; R134a -26.6deg.C.; HR12 -29.8deg. C.; and on it goes.

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    Member dom19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    It would be nice if there was a data sheet available so that the compatability of oils, seals and "O" rings as well as TX valves, compressors and working pressures with all these various gases that keep popping up, otherwise there's always the chance that someone is going to destroy a system if it's not all proven totally compatable.

    Alan S
    Alan we have had problems with aircons on tractors. (I work in the ag industry) Some brands struggle in Australia with the high pressures generated when operating at high temperature if they are running R134a. We regas them with HR12, totally compatible,runs at much lower pressures & produces lower cabin temps. No more detonated reciever driers with desicant all thru the air con system.
    Dom

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The point I was trying to establish is that according to the varying suppliers, when a system is converted, it has to have the "O" rings changed, in some cases the T/X changed and always the receiver dryer with a specified dessicant. Compressors can either be entirely changed as regards oil charge including in some cases flushing whilst in others it needs 50% of the oil changing but others require none.
    My point is that with all these varying gases around, all of which seem to have their own characteristics, some requiring synthetic oils whilst others still use petro based, I can see all kinds of long term dramas if people are just going to drop the first gas in they get access to and with these DIY kits seemingly getting popular, the chances of this seem to be increasing by the day.
    At least if there were some kind of data sheet available that outlined which gases are comppatable with which other items, then this would lessen the chances of a disaster, as it appears at present, Russian Roullette or Raffety's Rules seems to be a good description of what's currently happening.


    Alan S
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Valid Question Alan

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    Hi, why not just switch to HR 12, you know, the hydrocarbon stuff. Works just as well if not better and is cheap. The 134a thing is a bit of balony anyway as we will see when they promote the newer gases.
    The risk of fire is a bit of a furfy (theoretically possible but with the small quantities used i donj't think it is a problem. In any case hydrocarbon does not produce the toxic gases 134a produces in case of fire).
    No, i don't sell HR12 nor do i receive commisions.
    Like to be proved wrong.
    JoBo
    Jo,


    Since you have been using the hychill drop in replacement quite a lot


    1) Have you used in a system designed for R134A and which was charged with R134A ?

    2) If so , have you had any "O" ring problems ?


    Without any technical basis, but solely on auto aircon compressor specs none of the manufacturers seem to have different models for different refrigerants.

    This would suggest that any compressor with O rings/ seals rated for R134A are also compatible wth other refrigerants.

    This is suggestion only - needs to confirmed.

    I would suggest that a more serious issue is-
    Has some moron used R143A in R12 system and NOT changed the o rings l

  12. #12
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    Hi Rob,
    no, i haven't put HR12 into a system that was origionally designed for 134a.
    Tried to do it on a Audi but did not have the right connectors - they are a bit different.
    But i've charged a R19 which was filled with 134a back to HR12 - changing the r/d of course and all the O rings to the green ones. Yeah, the person who put the 134a in didn't bother to change the O rings to the green ones, probably didn't even change the r/d.
    Not surprising really. A mate who works in a country garage charges R12 systems with 134a (because the boss can't be bothered carrying two gases).
    When he tells the boss/owner that he also has to change all the O rings etc. the boss tells him to just regass it and not worry about the other things. The boss says it'll be OK for a year or so.
    Someone told me:' Yeah, that's the case in 80% of the refills to 134a'. Hope he is wrong.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default R134a / Green O Rings

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    Hi Rob,
    no, i haven't put HR12 into a system that was origionally designed for 134a.
    Tried to do it on a Audi but did not have the right connectors - they are a bit different.
    But i've charged a R19 which was filled with 134a back to HR12 - changing the r/d of course and all the O rings to the green ones. Yeah, the person who put the 134a in didn't bother to change the O rings to the green ones, probably didn't even change the r/d.
    Not surprising really. A mate who works in a country garage charges R12 systems with 134a (because the boss can't be bothered carrying two gases).
    When he tells the boss/owner that he also has to change all the O rings etc. the boss tells him to just regass it and not worry about the other things. The boss says it'll be OK for a year or so.
    Someone told me:' Yeah, that's the case in 80% of the refills to 134a'. Hope he is wrong.


    Hi Jo,


    Yes, there are lots of people out thre who don't know (or don't care) about the implications of recharging R12 systems with R134A.

    Their mission in life is get paid and not have the job bounce back on them during warranty. Hopefully it catches up them at some time.

    These people hav zero integrity - buyer beware !

    regards

    Robert

  14. #14
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    While on the A/C subject, I have to put in some synthetic oil into my compressor before it is gassed up. How much do you put in a 505 GR 82 compressor and what is the proceedure ? Hoses have been replaced so there is no gas in the system.
    Thankyou Bob D

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    Fellow Frogger! ajpolden's Avatar
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    All this talk about different refrigerants reminds me what my dad was told when he took his 87 SOB 9000 in to be regassed. He was told that the system needed to be converted to handle another type of gas, as the one currently used was now illegal (or something along those lines), and the the conversion operation would cost mega $$$.
    My question is - Is this a likely scenario or one that has been spun purely for the intent of robbing from a poor ignorant swedish car owner? (no jokes )
    I'm sorry I can't supply details about the gases involved - but I may be able to find out.
    Andrew.
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    They use two methods; one is to remove the compressor and drain into a clean container and measure the amount that comes out and replace with the same amount. Or if it's a fully evacuated system, find the brand and model and refer to makers specs.
    We have one that took 150 grams and another 235 as per makers specs.


    Alan S
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    Fellow Frogger! cam740's Avatar
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    we deal with fridge guys all teh time through work (we have an appliace spare parts company) and there are BIG fines for anyone caught using R12.

    funny thing is R12 was found to be unsafe just as Du Ponts patent on it was due to expire - go figure!!!

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajpolden
    All this talk about different refrigerants reminds me what my dad was told when he took his 87 SOB 9000 in to be regassed. He was told that the system needed to be converted to handle another type of gas, as the one currently used was now illegal (or something along those lines), and the the conversion operation would cost mega $$$.
    My question is - Is this a likely scenario or one that has been spun purely for the intent of robbing from a poor ignorant swedish car owner? (no jokes )
    I'm sorry I can't supply details about the gases involved - but I may be able to find out.
    Andrew.
    Its true for most 80's & very early 90's cars with A/C. The expense is in the labour, as seals and gasket need to be replaced to different types. On some A/C units they have to go as far as chaging the compressor & control units. Simple thing like a Tx valve can cost upward of $300 for some euro cars etc.. plus you know most a/c mech charge at about $50 p/hour. - Chris

    ps-the problem lies in the fact that this guy could well be using a known truth to rip some one off, as some cars didn't need the conversion. Or just ring around for a while and find some one with the older style gas. It's not illegal to top-up with the old gas; but if retrofitting, major maintenance or refurbishment means a proper convertion. Its the older style gas that is illegal as the greenies don't like it, which i think is stupid as the new stuff is just as harmfull but in different ways.... funny that.
    ... ptui!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    They use two methods; one is to remove the compressor and drain into a clean container and measure the amount that comes out and replace with the same amount. Or if it's a fully evacuated system, find the brand and model and refer to makers specs.
    We have one that took 150 grams and another 235 as per makers specs.


    Alan S
    Thanks Alan, The compressor has a torn and faded gold sticker. It appears the brand is S..AYO with the A doubtful. The serial no is SD-50? but the ? could be the be another 0. It is off an 82 505. Has anyone got a sticker in good condition so I can get the make and model ? I then may get a quantity for the oil. Thankyou.

  20. #20
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The model number indicates it's a "Sanden" compressor and the first two digits I would suspect makes it either a SD 507 or SD508 (as the 505 I feel would be a bit small for a Pug 505 and the model up is a 510.
    According to the factory info there, the 507 would be 165 mls +/- 15 and the 508 would be 210 +/- 15 so I would suggest a figure of around 180 would be a pretty line ball figure if there's any doubt on the exact model.
    Sanden compressors many years ago were sold as "Sankyo" (which sounded a bit too much like Sanyo and confused people) and "Sankyo" went on to specialise in controls such as timers for fridges and washing machines etc. I understand they morphed into "Sanden" on the air/con side of things, so if this is correct, it would be fair to expect the models stayed the same seeing as how each number in the model designates something as regards specifications of teh compressor, so those figures should be fairly accurate.

    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 22nd October 2005 at 07:50 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Thanks again Alan,
    It must be an SD-508 as I can see the LHS of the number and it is definitely not a 7. The RHS has a scratch through it.

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