Frogs take up 4/10 revolutionary cars
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  1. #1
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    Default Frogs take up 4/10 revolutionary cars

    The latest edition of Geare magazine lists 10 revolutionary cars of all time and 2 Citroens & 2 Renaults make it to the list.

    Namely, Citroen DS and I can't remember the other model but it was the first production car to feature front wheel drive.

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    The Renaults were 16 and Espace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue2th
    The latest edition of Geare magazine lists 10 revolutionary cars of all time and 2 Citroens & 2 Renaults make it to the list.

    Namely, Citroen DS and I can't remember the other model but it was the first production car to feature front wheel drive.

    The Renaults were 16 and Espace.
    That would be the Traction Avant.
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    What? no Peugeots?


    p.s. I do like pugs. Really, I do.
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    Out of interest, did Golf GTI and Beetle rate a mention? I love DS!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgolf
    Out of interest, did Golf GTI and Beetle rate a mention? I love DS!!!
    The Golf GTI was hardly revolutionary!

    Craig, you sure you didn't mean the AX?

    Stuey


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    The Golf GTI was hardly revolutionary!

    Craig, you sure you didn't mean the AX?

    Stuey
    Actually I meant the LNA.
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    GTI not revolutionary? It single handedly put 4 cylinder cars on the performance map, and created a genre the French have copied extremely well. Small car that could match it with a Porsche of its day? Nice!!!! Guess its a subjective as to how revolutionary it was, but it certainly was more revolutionary than you are giving it credit. Yes, I know about Mini Cooper S, but the GTI had space and was practical.... And could do 190kmh when every other 4cyl was stuck around 160...

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    Default No golfing

    Quote Originally Posted by blue2th
    The latest edition of Geare magazine lists 10 revolutionary cars of all time and 2 Citroens & 2 Renaults make it to the list.

    Namely, Citroen DS and I can't remember the other model but it was the first production car to feature front wheel drive.

    The Renaults were 16 and Espace.
    Obviously Author had no time for playing golf

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    ouch.... That is not very inclusive of you, Ken. I know I am an outsider, but come on, lets play nice....

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    Default I thought you were here to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgolf
    ouch.... That is not very inclusive of you, Ken. I know I am an outsider, but come on, lets play nice....

    Sorry I thought you were here to play a round or two. The grass is green

    couldn't resist.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgolf
    GTI not revolutionary? It single handedly put 4 cylinder cars on the performance map, and created a genre the French have copied extremely well. Small car that could match it with a Porsche of its day? Nice!!!! Guess its a subjective as to how revolutionary it was, but it certainly was more revolutionary than you are giving it credit. Yes, I know about Mini Cooper S, but the GTI had space and was practical.... And could do 190kmh when every other 4cyl was stuck around 160...

    Revolutionary according to the oxford dictionary -
    "Involving great and often violent change or innovation"

    An extra 30km/h and the Golf has more space, larger external dimensions?

    Innovative at best but I certainly wouldn't categorise as revolutionary.
    The original Beetle was a greater revolution than a golf anyday, regardless of power outputs.

    The 2CV Citroen was revolutionary as well. In other words, totally different to anything else. A new way of doing things.

    Marc

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    This is the great problem with "top ten" type things. They are always someone else's opinion that for various reasons differs from our own. I'm sure wherever this magazine is sold that its sales are up this month and the proprietors are happy. Object achieved.
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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    What were the other six? Please

    ed ge

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    err...ok, i'll re-read at the newsagents and complete the list but i recall the new mini (BMW) was on the list and the VW Kombi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgolf
    GTI not revolutionary? It single handedly put 4 cylinder cars on the performance map, and created a genre the French have copied extremely well. Small car that could match it with a Porsche of its day? Nice!!!! Guess its a subjective as to how revolutionary it was, but it certainly was more revolutionary than you are giving it credit. Yes, I know about Mini Cooper S, but the GTI had space and was practical.... And could do 190kmh when every other 4cyl was stuck around 160...
    Um .... What about the Renault 5 GT turbo ... a golf would be coughing on it's dust as it dissappeared into the distance...

    The mini cooper S (maybe even to a lesser extent the R16ts) certainly are the ones that put small cars into the performance arena.

    The mini:

    --very small
    --east west engine
    --rubber suspension
    --go-kart handling

    Nothing new, but never bought together all in one package before. The golf is just a car that's tried to play 'catch up' with ones that brought in the new era of small performance cars.

    If you want iconic and VW think the early beetles.... For much the same reasons as the Mini.

    Lets look at the Citroens:

    The Traction Avant : FWD (yes front wheel drive in the 30's ... The golf only took 50years to catch up ), monique type construction, torsion suspension ..... Rides extemely well and handles likes a sports car ... Infact they were the getaway car of there day, if you wanted to rob a bank, you first went and stole a Traction as the getaway car.

    --DS:
    -lightweight use of plastics
    -lighweight use of aluminium (bonnet, roof and bootlid.... Infact I think the bonnet was the biggest aluminium pressing in the world for quite some years ... It still could well be ).
    -Incredibly stong hull design on which the body panels are only a decoration
    -Fully powered steering (not power assisted)
    -self leveling hydraulic suspension that bought in a new era in ride comfort that is yet to be surpased.
    -turning headlights
    -high pressure braking
    -massive inboard disc brakes
    -----gee's I could go on for days .... And this was in THE FIFTIES !!!

    Now where were you again ... Oh yeah the Lada lookalike ( ) Um ... What was special about it again

    seeya,
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    Default more 205gti propoganda!

    in simple terms a hothatch is defined as a 3door hatchback, fwd, front engined with no more than 2.0 cubes.

    the r5turbo is ballistic but in the true sense of the definition, is not a "hothatch"... but whats in a word ey?! the hottest of hothatches is the giant killing F2 P306maxi!

    the vw golf gti started it all (gti hatchdom) but (ehem) the peugeot 205gti redefined and revolutionised it, hence it was voted performance car of the 80s and is held in high regard by enthusiasts, even today.

    ready for the flame throwers!
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    previous frogs:

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    gimme corners. . .


  17. #17
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    The new BMW Mini in the top 10?
    Got me in stiches...

    2nd the comments on the VW GTI not being revolutionary... sure it was a vast improvement (at most), but it wasnt "out of the box" thinking...

    Agreed the ol Cits should be up there 100% with all their stuff.

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The car should really be ground breaking...

    So really out of the frenchies we will have:

    -traction
    -2cv the first really usable car ... designed so that anyone could afford to run it
    -DS

    NOT:
    --CX ( )
    --GS
    --SM
    --BX
    --etc.........

    Renaults:

    --R16 (first really usable hatchback)
    ??? Nothing really groundbreaking about the rest

    Poogoe ??
    --Much like many of the Cit's and Renaults, they were good cars but nothing ground breaking there.

    I've got a poster on the wall at work behind me which pictures the top 100cars of the last century... The golf, renault 5, 205, R16, Saab 96, Jag mark2, land drover, Mazda Rx7, Range rover, Datsun 240Z .... ie: a whole stack of cars get a mention, many of them were records sellers and good at what they did, but they simply were not ground breaking in any way.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugjet
    in simple terms a hothatch is defined as a 3door hatchback, fwd, front engined with no more than 2.0 cubes.

    the r5turbo is ballistic but in the true sense of the definition, is not a "hothatch"... but whats in a word ey?! the hottest of hothatches is the giant killing F2 P306maxi!

    the vw golf gti started it all (gti hatchdom) but (ehem) the peugeot 205gti redefined and revolutionised it, hence it was voted performance car of the 80s and is held in high regard by enthusiasts, even today.

    ready for the flame throwers!
    Obviouisly your definition of a 'hot hatch' is diferent to mine

    The ultimate hot hatches (in no particular order) are:

    Renault Clio V6 - phase II if you want to keep your undies clean
    Renault 5 Turbo II - no comment required really
    RCS - the ultimate giant killer and class leader for many years now
    Puegeot 205Turbo16 - or what ever the mid engined rally job was called (just a token inclussion to please you puggy whingers )

  20. #20
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    sorry guys,

    i stuffed up. it was the BMC mini and i kept thinking bmw for some reason!
    it was the traction avant citroen.

    so all up in no particular order:

    1. mini;
    2. Citroen Traction Avant;
    3. Citroen DS;
    4. Renault 16;
    5. VW Kombi;
    6. Porsche 911;
    7. Renault Espace;
    8. mx-5


    darn....and my alzheimers has set in! i can't remember the other 2 now...

    will update the list when i remember the other 2....

  21. #21
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    Funny, I wouldn't place the MX5 as revolutionary either....
    Simply a japanese interpretation of a lotus.

    Neither is the Espace... especially if they place the Kombi on the list which i supposed started the people mover genre.

    All the others seems pretty reasonable.. though I am not sure why they rate the 911 as revolutionary... its pretty much a dead end (in that only Porsche progressed with that layout)
    Last edited by mantra; 22nd September 2005 at 07:45 PM.

  22. #22
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    Must includes:
    The Golf absolutely revolutionised the market by making a contemporary RWD beater. This was a massive massive car! We didn't see the full picture in OZ like in Europe.
    The Alfasud was I reckon better in 1974, but it was never developed like the Golf and they got rusty.

    MX5 revitalised the industry around the world! Convertibles were almost forgotten in the late 80's, except for posh cars and weirdo things like Morgans. MX5's were back to basic cars that were miles better than the rest. Reliable fun and fast.

    Otherwise, The 911 people reckon is pretty hot, though they never gave me the horn.
    Kombi just because it was so good for hippies.
    And Mini and R16 if you tell me, and prolly the DS.
    Surely the Model T would be in there.
    There would have to be some sort of American 50's car in there too.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

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    Thank you Warwick!

    I didnt say the GTI was the best hatch ever, I did say that it started the revolution. It came before the Renault 5 turbo. It came before all other hot hatches. The GTI nomenclature would not exist without the original 1976 Golf GTI. It brought performance to a fuel crisis starved population. Until then, speed was confined to 6 or 8 or 12 cylinders, and the GTI changed all that. An environmentally friendly Bahn stormer and B road giant. Revolutionary. I even said that the French copied the formula extremely well. But the Golf GTI started the Hot Hatch revolution, and without it who knows where we would be. The RCS and MCS, 206 GTI, 205 GTI and all manner of other sporty hatches all owe their roots to a humble little fire breathing hatch from Germany.

    No, it isnt revolutionary in the same way the 2CV was, but credit where credit is due. I am being fairly reasonable in highlighting the great work the Frenchies have done with the Hot Hatch, so how about a bit of acknowledgement towards the grand daddy of all hot hatches....

    (of course, I am a bit biased, and passionate, so please read this rant with the good nature it was written in....)

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    It seems to be more of an argument on what 'revolutionary' means! The Golf simply bettered a formula already established previously, by creating a nice package in the form of the Giugiaro body. I'm not denying that it was nicely executed and a huge seller, but the formula was already around, finely honed by the Fiat 128, hatchbacked by the 127, and adopted by the Golf.

    And for the record, I really like the Golf Mk I & II. Some people take lack of bias the wrong way...

    Stuey


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    Fair call, and point taken. A bit unrealistic to expect the GTI to be in top 10 (although an English Motoring mag listed it as #1 in top 100 influential vehicles of the 20th century....) revolutionary cars.

    I really only made a fuss cos it seemed people were canning the GTI to a degree without giving it a little credit. All is quiet in Bias-ville, population: me.

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