R25 Vs XM
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Thread: R25 Vs XM

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default R25 Vs XM

    Hi,

    I'm new to the forum - been visiting for quite some time now, but since there seems to be such a wealth of knowledge out there, thought it was best to register and tap into it.

    I'm currently running a 1978 Renault 30 TS but I'm looking for something else, newer, for family transport. I've narrowed it down to two options and would be really interested to hear the views of folk who've owned (or just used) both cars.

    My choice is between the Renault 25 and Citroen XM.

    Model options for the 25 would probably be GTX or a V6 (probably not the turbo). Definitely a manual - too many horror stories about the autos!

    For the XM, 2 litre Turbo or V6. Probably auto - mainly due to parking brake, but also because I do like clutchless motoring. I'm tempted by the estate, but it can't match the hatch for good looks.

    Both seem really worthy and undervalued cars (my favourite kind!), both distinctive, comfortable, practical and fairly lively. I think I've got a reasonable idea of each car from the information that's already out there, but I've not yet seen them compared. I guess this is mostly due to the fact that they weren't available side-by-side for very long, but as a used car option they would seem to fill the same niche.

    Thanks in advance for any responses.

    Cheers,

    Tim.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Hey Tim, welcome to Aussiefrogs, please feel like you at a mates place, imagine it's a saturday arvo, bit of sun, few beers, other mates, talking cars and some bloke says;

    heads up mate i've never had nuffin to do with either of 'um but i reckon it'd be up ta you mate wether ya reckon ya can sling the tools to keep upo with them fancy pants citroons but ifya reckon yer not upto it mate then get the reno mate cos there a bunch simpler like an most anybody knows sumpin about 'em.

    And ya'd think; bludee hell, this buffo must think the two halfz iz brain must think there in the same space.

    And then someone drops a snag on white bread with sauce and onions in your mitt and man your in Ozztrailya, its a barbie mate, beer, chicks, music, your mates, mate, get another beer mate, get me one while your there and then they break out the bourbon and the bundy, fire up the chillum, crank up the stereo, its led zepplin, deep purple, acca dacca, you party foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....................... .....

    The next day you wake up naked on the front lawn with a pair of blokes undies on your face, your sooooo hot, where,,,,,,,
    what,,,,,,,,,
    who,,,,,,,,
    how,,,,,,
    the time........... it must be late ...... there are sooo many people in the street ........ooooooooooooooomggggggggddddddd youre entire body is the colour of a lobster and who are these guys in uniform........omg its the police...........................


    TIM.........TIM..........TIM...................... ..WAKEUP......WAKEUP

    Tim wakeup that guy from austaylia rang up and said the car was sold.
    He said he hoped you enjoyed the barbie with your ozzzzie mates, mate?


    And ya think; whadid that guy say??????????????


    ed ge

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Are they compariable

    Do we want to compare a car that sold for $80,000 to a car that sold for probably half that.

    They both have electrical problems, you can get the Renault with a *proper* manual gearbox

    They both have there good points. The V6 Renault 25 I imagine will be just as hard to get mechanical parts (if not more difficult) than the XM.

    There both not easy to find, so drive one of each and make your decision, I'd probably take the XM just 'cos it's got proper suspension and brakes.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    ed ge, how's your head this morning?

    Tim's from sunny Bristol, so he'd have no worries finding someone that knows Citroens, I presume.

    Tim, member and mod UFO has a nice XM V6 so should be able to help with specific XM questions (dobbed you in Craig).

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh gee's, I missed it being the UK bit.

    Choice is easy, an XM 2.5 turbo deisel... Did you get XM HDi's or are they to old. The 2litre petrol turbo really is a small motor for such a big car, it makes me wonder if they'd be fast at all.

    The last thing I'd want given your price of petrol is the V6 slugomatic Nothing to do with it not being a nice car, but regually filling an 80litre fuel tank at $3.00aud ??? a litre certainly is offputting.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Or if you are feeling extravagant AND want to go fast the early 24V XM (with the PRV engine) only came in manual as they did not have an autobox able to handle the power (some might say they still don't?? )

    Paul
    Paul Smith

    1974 DS23 EFI BW Auto
    1974 G Special 1220


    http://www.simplicitas.com.au

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! blomquvist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttimbo
    I'm currently running a 1978 Renault 30 TS but I'm looking for something else, newer, for family transport. I've narrowed it down to two options and would be really interested to hear the views of folk who've owned (or just used) both cars....

    ...Both seem really worthy and undervalued cars (my favourite kind!), both distinctive, comfortable, practical and fairly lively.
    Tim,

    Brief impressions of as newish owner of an old XM (1992 2.0i manual) is that it's an excellent car for family transport - can fit my brood of three (all under five years, so all in various forms of cumbersome child restraint) in the back seat with ease - more so than in beloved wife's Volvo V70 rocket ship. Heaps of leg room makes it easier to wrestle them in and out. Huge boot carries heaps of stuff. Now if only it had the screen behind the front seats to block the noise, like the DS Prestige of many years ago. The smaller engines in the XM still move the car along well (manual transmission lets you make the most of them), and long distance economy is outstanding.

    The parking brake is not a problem - you assimilate its use quickly. Other than that, a really nice car. Great ride at speed on crap roads, nice handling for a large car, good creature comforts. Bertone did a good job with the styling - it's an attractive vehicle.

    You may need to filter Australian comments on the XM carefully - the car has a different reputation here to its UK notoriety - very few were sold (they retailed for the rough equivalent of 40,000 pounds during our early 90's recession), and they keep their value well, relative to other Cits (and other cars from that time), unlike the UK where they go for peanuts on ebay. Australian weather is also kinder to them, so we probably have quite a different mean time between failures, etc.

    Can't comment on the Renault - always felt a bit lukewarm towards them for no readily apparent reason. Used to work near Virage Motors in South Melbourne, which always seemed to be littered with their corpses.

    Good luck,

    Greg
    Last edited by blomquvist; 17th September 2005 at 10:51 PM.
    1992 Citroen XM 2.0i Prestige 1989 Peugeot 205 GTI S2 (Little Red Car for sale) 1998 Volvo V70R AWD (Big Red Car)

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! sdabel's Avatar
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    I owned a 25 GTX before my current XM. The 25 was a lovely car to drive, very light controls with lots of feedback. Quiet and roomy inside. The seats fold flat giving a huge amount of room (but not as expansive as the XM). Mine was the 5sp manual which was very good on fuel. Everyone who drove it commented on how nice it was to drive and passengers on how good the seats were. I found it a bit light at high speeds- but I had come from a CX. It didn't like cross winds much. Mechanically it was easy to work on and reliable. In the end it suffered a broken gearbox, seems that the renault spec trans oil was too light for aussie heat. Previous owner had towed with it so that might also have put too much wear on it. Here in Australia 25's are real orphins, the new renault dealer up the road from me had never even seen one before! So the cost of fixing almost sent the car to the grave. I ended up selling it to a guy who was going ot fix it for his wife to drive, I think I got enough for a carton of beer! However he did fix and appantly his wife is very pleased with it.

    The XM is a bigger and much heavier car than the renault. Lots of toys and of course it has Citroen brakes and suspension. Nice big 4 wheel disks compared to disk/drums on the 25. ABS too. Fully independant rear suspension which you notice on B grade roads. Passive rear steering which I like. Being bigger, the XM is a bit harder to park and manouvere, its better than most cars its size but the 25 has an amazing turning circle. Front seats are great in both cars but I think the XM's are better, no contest in the rear however. The rear seat of an XM is the only way to travel long distance.

    Performance wise the manual 25 is similar to my auto 2.1 TD. The XM is probably a bit more economical around town and a lot more on the highway. Both have big tanks and are brilliant for long interstate trips. The XM being bigger has more boot space. Around town the smaller more nimble 25 is easier.

    Really I guess it comes down to which car you like the feel of, the light responsive 25 or the solid but soft XM. I would consider cost of regular servicing as well.

    I prefer the XM but then maybe I am biased towards Citroens however I really loved the 25.

    regards
    sean
    _____________________
    1996 XM 2.1 TD Exclusive

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Default Thanks!

    Thanks for the welcome and all the responses - apologies, I should have made it more obvious that I'm UK-based.

    ed ge - I'll forward your response to my (naturalised Australian) brother for a translation!

    I'll keep you posted as to my final decision. I'm leaning towards the XM - just as soon as I've scraped together some loose change from the back of the sofa (sorry to say, that's how cheap they are over here!).

    Cheers,

    Tim.

  10. #10
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Do we want to compare a car that sold for $80,000 to a car that sold for probably half that.
    Shane if you look at the old brochures of the R25 it was for sale in australia for the same money. In its day it was a very expensive car actually. The same goes much the same for the R21.

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Daniel,

    I think you'll find only the very last V6 R25 Bacara's (sp?) were even close to the XM price .... They probably only sold 2 or 3 of them after they sat for years on the showroom floor. Most R25's are piddly little 2.2litre 4's with either a 3spd slugomatic or 5spd manual.

    I think there was about 5 ??? 4 cylinder manual XM's sold out here, and the rest are V6 slugomatics. My father actually looked into buying a late model XM about 2years back. He reckoned it felt no better than the Xantia in most aspects, certainly it didn't feel hugely faster (he drove a couple of them, the Xantia is a 2litre slugomatic too). You will probably find the same if you drive done a base model Laguna and test drive the top model V6 R25 Bacura with the works.

    My father won though, my mother had her mind set on the XM (apparantly an exceptionally nice looking car inside and out) because my father couldn't see it being $15,000 better than the Xantia (the changeover figure).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    Member 25 V6 TURBO's Avatar
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    get a 25 v6 TURBO!!,its a right top car for little money and,EVERY one is manual,you will never find a v6 25 manual in the uk!!mine is a dream,in mint condition,and i,ve got tons of spares,the turbo is great fun,and quick!!good luck in finding one though,its the rarest 25 version to find i think??

  13. #13
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    get a 25 v6 TURBO!!,its a right top car for little money and,EVERY one is manual,you will never find a v6 25 manual in the uk!!mine is a dream,in mint condition,and i,ve got tons of spares,the turbo is great fun,and quick!!good luck in finding one though,its the rarest 25 version to find i think??
    I agree 100% but where are they in australia. I doubt you would ever find one.

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25 V6 TURBO
    get a 25 v6 TURBO!!,its a right top car for little money and,EVERY one is manual,you will never find a v6 25 manual in the uk!!mine is a dream,in mint condition,and i,ve got tons of spares,the turbo is great fun,and quick!!good luck in finding one though,its the rarest 25 version to find i think??
    Nah ... If you wanted one of them why not get a CX GTi Turbo ... You won't need tons of spare parts (the drivetrain in the Cit's in near indestructable), there is much less turbo lag .... And nearly every bit as quick as the Renault 25 V6 turbo And it's got *proper suspension*

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Nah ... If you wanted one of them why not get a CX GTi Turbo ... You won't need tons of spare parts (the drivetrain in the Cit's in near indestructable), there is much less turbo lag .... And nearly every bit as quick as the Renault 25 V6 turbo And it's got *proper suspension*

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Umm...you are aware that they use the Renault 25T Transaxle behind Hi-Po V8's in many a kit car...They are indestructable (although I'm sure my wife could kill it...)

    The Auto may be a different kettle of fish...

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    Umm...you are aware that they use the Renault 25T Transaxle behind Hi-Po V8's in many a kit car...They are indestructable (although I'm sure my wife could kill it...)

    The Auto may be a different kettle of fish...
    Have a read here ....

    R25 vs CX vs Saab

    The LOVE the R25.... The CX they could pass on by the sounds of it (the poor plebs just coun't get the hang of driving a car with *proper* steering & brakes ..... I say make 'em drive the CX for a month, then re-do the road test ).

    All in all a great read

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
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    Yeah, I've read that article before.

    It's been a while but from memory they weren't exactly over the moon with the 25 either ...

    I reckon a 25 with the lighter 21 Turbo drivelne would be a good combination...

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    Member 25 V6 TURBO's Avatar
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    the chap who posted the thread is listed as living in the uk??so a better chance of finding a turbo,the running gear is strong,read the un1 box can take 350bhp,and as said is a favourite for kit car people,if in uk,find a turbo 25(i can help with spares you need)or if in auz!!!!!better look at something else???might be tricky finding one :confused

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Hi Daniel,

    I think you'll find only the very last V6 R25 Bacara's (sp?) were even close to the XM price .... They probably only sold 2 or 3 of them after they sat for years on the showroom floor. Most R25's are piddly little 2.2litre 4's with either a 3spd slugomatic or 5spd manual.

    I think there was about 5 ??? 4 cylinder manual XM's sold out here, and the rest are V6 slugomatics. My father actually looked into buying a late model XM about 2years back. He reckoned it felt no better than the Xantia in most aspects, certainly it didn't feel hugely faster (he drove a couple of them, the Xantia is a 2litre slugomatic too). You will probably find the same if you drive done a base model Laguna and test drive the top model V6 R25 Bacura with the works.

    My father won though, my mother had her mind set on the XM (apparantly an exceptionally nice looking car inside and out) because my father couldn't see it being $15,000 better than the Xantia (the changeover figure).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Does that mean the XM was grossly overpriced as well as grossly over rated?

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    They were both grossly overpriced ... Would you pay $80,000+ for a new XM

    Enormously underated I'd say they both are ... But still, what do you expect when they were so bloody expensive. I'm surprised they sold any of them. The biggest problem was the badges don't buy the image required for that price range, you need people to be able to see and recognise it (eg big Merc ) and know you have "made it".

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    I can remember pressing my nose against the glass at the Cit dealer in William St Sydney, when they were first released here. I thought to myself "...wow how did they get that great leather lounge suite in a car". Being in William St at the time I briefly mused how such a palace on wheels might be used as a mobile knock shop. Then I asked the price.....that's alot to pay for any car even these days let alone back then.

    I have to confess I was trying to hit the bars with the tin cup as far as the "grossly over rated" comment goes.

    I don't know about the XM but as far as the 25 goes you would have to say that the concept was brilliant but the execution had some pretty memorable design flaws.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  22. #22
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by 25 V6 TURBO
    the chap who posted the thread is listed as living in the uk??so a better chance of finding a turbo,the running gear is strong,read the un1 box can take 350bhp,and as said is a favourite for kit car people,if in uk,find a turbo 25(i can help with spares you need)or if in auz!!!!!better look at something else???might be tricky finding one :confused
    Yes - I've seen a couple of Turbos since I've been looking. There was the silver one advertised on the ROC website (but the vendor wanted 'offers' (don't you just hate that?) - I'm looking around the 300 - 400 mark which should get a reasonable 25 here in the UK - I guessed they wanted more than that). There was also an MOT-less car in Worcestershire for 150 - but I'm really looking for something on the road - I've got too many projects as it is - my current daily driver Renault 30TS needs some work too.

    I'm still not decided betwwen the XM and the R25 - I think it's a case of when a good example of either comes along in my price range.

    I did see the 25 Turbo/CX/Saab article a while back - I seem to recall that the 25 came tops? Now these are all 'old' cars, the 'value for money' judgement changes a bit. My guess is that the R25 is probably the cheapest of these (in the UK) now, and any arguments over whether they should command the same price as a Merc or whatever, no longer apply.

    I'm glad this has stimulated so much interest - thanks to everyone contributing. Can anyone else offer a direct XM/R25 comparison?

  23. #23
    Member 25 V6 TURBO's Avatar
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    yeah i saw that silver one in the roc mag aswell,never rang it though,you never know might be cheap??and i think i saw the one without an mot(e-bay??)think thats asking for trouble!!if you seriously want a turbo 25 i,il keep my eyes open,but doubt it will be to much for 300-400???i paid 500 for a breaker!

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