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  1. #1
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Icon2 Our cars and weather?

    I thought I would put this out there.
    As our comes come from a (generally speaking) cold country France? It needs to be asked are our cars suited to a colder climate or a hotter climate?
    What are others thoughts on the issue?
    Do they run better in hotter weather or colder weather?

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    I thought I would put this out there.
    As our comes come from a (generally speaking) cold country France? It needs to be asked are our cars suited to a colder climate or a hotter climate?
    What are others thoughts on the issue?
    Do they run better in hotter weather or colder weather?
    The colder the air (denser), the better the combustion. Also I find (with older cars) they run better on humid/rainy days - moist air having a similar effect to water injection (reduced knock).

    With modern cars and variable valve timing it shouldn't be an issue regardless of climate.
    Last edited by graham66; 16th August 2005 at 01:11 PM.

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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    The only issue I see, is that when it rains here it pours!!! Most of the modern EFI froggies have the indcution on the LHS of the car, so we have had some water sucked up into the engine reports... this applies to several other euro based cars too. I think Brenno/ maquered reported on this before. - Chris
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    Fellow Frogger! Westair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    I thought I would put this out there.
    As our comes come from a (generally speaking) cold country France? It needs to be asked are our cars suited to a colder climate or a hotter climate?
    What are others thoughts on the issue?
    Do they run better in hotter weather or colder weather?

    As Graham 66 says most engines run better on colder/denser air.

    France/Italy particularly have cold days but when it's around 40 it's just as hot as here.
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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    As above - the engine will run better in colder weather than in hotter weather unless it is a turbo which creates the same effect of more dense air.

    However, I find it interesting that our Scenic has quite poor windscreen demisting compared to our Aussie car. Even with the air-cond turned on to speed up the early morning demisting, it still takes much longer than normal. As it turns out it is no longer a problem because I am able to park it under cover, but I would have thought a Euro car would have had "super" demisting.

    cheers
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    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    I've been to the sout of France when it was 43 degrees. I'm sure they have just as many hot days there as here, although their colder days are much much colder.
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    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    I thought I would put this out there.
    As our comes come from a (generally speaking) cold country France? It needs to be asked are our cars suited to a colder climate or a hotter climate?
    What are others thoughts on the issue?
    Do they run better in hotter weather or colder weather?

    dont know about the newer cars but with the 504/505 its pays to disconect and plug the manifold water hoses, as they were designed to warm the intake but here it australia it will stay warm enough by it self...

    it accually seems to make a differance to how smooth it will idle, and to the running temp on the motorway.

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    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman
    As above - the engine will run better in colder weather than in hotter weather unless it is a turbo which creates the same effect of more dense air.
    Turbo's are more sensitive to temperature than N/A cars.

    I'd have to say my 205 definitely works better in the cold. The windows are so big it's like driving in a greenhouse, and the aircon is so weak it's like driving in a greenhouse...

    I need to build a 12v window-box aircon onto my car for summer. :p
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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for once I decided that I would try and post something sensible.

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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubits
    Turbo's are more sensitive to temperature than N/A cars.

    I'd have to say my 205 definitely works better in the cold. The windows are so big it's like driving in a greenhouse, and the aircon is so weak it's like driving in a greenhouse...

    I need to build a 12v window-box aircon onto my car for summer. :p
    Yes, I guess that in colder weather a turbo packs in even more of the dense air so performance would increase - up to the blow-off point.
    What I was actually getting at was that in really hot weather the N/A engine power will fall away but a turbo will counteract the less dense air and maintain a good performance so the difference isnt noticed.
    From my truck days of about 25 years ago when big turbo-diesels were becoming very popular, I remember that you could hardly sell a N/A truck for the tropical areas (NW of WA, NT, QLD) because they just couldn't pull the loads in the really hot weather.

    Re the greenhouse, although the Scenic demist is a bit slow on the uptake, in fact the aircond is damn good - surprised me a bit really.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Fordman]Yes, I guess that in colder weather a turbo packs in even more of the dense air so performance would increase - up to the blow-off point.
    What I was actually getting at was that in really hot weather the N/A engine power will fall away but a turbo will counteract the less dense air and maintain a good performance so the difference isnt noticed.
    From my truck days of about 25 years ago when big turbo-diesels were becoming very popular, I remember that you could hardly sell a N/A truck for the tropical areas (NW of WA, NT, QLD) because they just couldn't pull the loads in the really hot weather.

    Having had the pleasure of driving a turbocharged Pug for the last 8 months I must offer my 2c worth regarding this post.
    If you had two engines of identical capacities, one with forced induction and one without, you'd notice the N/A motor suffers a lesser effect from ambient temps than a turbo/supercharged one. Simple physics.
    Forced induction will serve only to emphasise this, not counteract the depleted power output. Compressed air is hotter air which is why intercooling is so important. In hotter weather intercooling is still effective, but can't lower inlet temps to the same level as it would in sub-zero conditions.
    In laymans terms: hot=greater volum./less density. cold=same volume/greater density.
    In summary: greater density=more air. More air=more air/fuel. More air/fuel=more power & torque.
    Chris.

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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Aren't you forgetting the main purpose of the turbo - to increase the pressure of the air?

    The pressure pumps more mass of air into the same volume - increasing the density for the same results you quote. The effect of increasing the temp of the air does diminish the effect but the overall effect of higher pressure is still more dense air in the engine.

    Still simple physics - but Pressure needs to be in the equation.

    Cheers.

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    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    This isn't a question of outright power, it's a matter of relative power based on ambient temperature. As the temperature increases, the effectiveness of the intercooler diminishes substancially, and the air entering the engine is consequently warmer.

    That is why N/A cars aren't affected as badly. Their intake temp isn't heated by the turbo, so therefore doesn't need cooling.

    Just look at any motor mag where they test turbo's vs v8's etc. They're always on about "if the temperature was cooler like the last time we tested the evo, it would've flogged the clubbie for sure".
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    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman
    Aren't you forgetting the main purpose of the turbo - to increase the pressure of the air?

    The pressure pumps more mass of air into the same volume - increasing the density for the same results you quote. The effect of increasing the temp of the air does diminish the effect but the overall effect of higher pressure is still more dense air in the engine.

    Still simple physics - but Pressure needs to be in the equation.

    Cheers.
    Of course a turbocharger increases air density. That's its job. But it doesn't counteract higher temperatures. If anything it contributes to them.

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    Getting back to the original subject, Stone Free said
    I've been to the south of France when it was 43 degrees. I'm sure they have just as many hot days there as here, although their colder days are much much colder.

    I wouldn't be so sure. Here we could, in theory, have warm to hot days for over 6 months. Whilst in Europe they do have the occasional stinker, it may only be in the bracket of July and August, it starts to get faily cool fairly quickly after that.

    Depends if you are north or south, high or low of course. In London, some cabs have a little shutter over the front grill to stop the cold air blowing in. I've seen the same thing in France too, but not really on anything newer that about a 305.

    Whilst this will not address the original question of how the cars run, another difference I find, as do many others, is that the ventilation in the cabin is not up to aussie standards.

    When you get into electro-mechanical wizardry of an Mi16 for instance, I have been told that the heater and flap motor are set up to "fail to hot". The heater is always on, and the air is controlled by a flap, there is no tap as such to keep the hot water out of the interior of the car. Do local cars have that? They may, I wouldn't know, never owned one. And never will.

    Chris

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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman
    The pressure pumps more mass of air into the same volume - increasing the density for the same results you quote. The effect of increasing the temp of the air does diminish the effect but the overall effect of higher pressure is still more dense air in the engine.

    Still simple physics - but Pressure needs to be in the equation.

    Cheers.
    Haha, who'd have thought we'd get into a physics lesson here. I think there is too much separation. We need to consider both Charles' and Boyles' laws.

    Charles' law:

    The volume of a gas varies in direct proportion to the absolute temperature
    Boyles' law:

    The volume of a confined body of gas varies inversely as its absolute pressure, the temperature remaining constant.
    Now, enough of this silliness. Would anyone like to discuss the Adiabatic Lapse Rate?
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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206
    Would anyone like to discuss the Adiabatic Lapse Rate?
    Sounds like something you'd need to see a gynaechologist about!!

    Something that was always commented on when I was in the car yards years ago, (when there were still a lot of carby cars around) was that it seemed to be the colder the Country of manufacture, the harder they were to start on winters mornings. Some of the old Pommie Fords needed full choke and no accellerator and if left outside overnight such as on the lot, they would need jumpers or you'd need to wait until about 10am to start them without too many problems.

    It's interesting the comments on the Willowbank drags which are done at Purga just near Amberly in Queensland and as cold a hole as you'd find anywhere in Australia, (or as hot a one in Summer) that on the clear cold winters nights, the dragsters go like the clappers in comparison to the warmer times of the year, which is possibly why the "Winters" are always so popular with both spectators and competitors.




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    I always thought a cold Ballarat winter was about the equal of a 403. They would start ok but had to run on choke forever, and I seem to recall driving through frosty nights over the Pentlands when the heater would run cold. A coat and gloves were essential.
    I sometimes wonder how those 402 commercials the Germans took east during the war coped with -40C.

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    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S


    It's interesting the comments on the Willowbank drags which are done at Purga just near Amberly in Queensland and as cold a hole as you'd find anywhere in Australia, (or as hot a one in Summer) that on the clear cold winters nights, the dragsters go like the clappers in comparison to the warmer times of the year, which is possibly why the "Winters" are always so popular with both spectators and competitors.

    Alan S
    Likewise with Eastern Creek, In summer its mighty hot during the day and come wintertime, its absloutely freezing!

    With the weather, Ive always been told that the "winters" bring out the quickest times. I was watching speedweek one day and they had a meet at Willowbank in high summer. The temprature was around mid 40's with some astronomical track temp, humidity was also in the 90's. The commentators and the teams were commenting about how bad the weather was, the high levels of humidity were a major factor in such slow times!

    I dont know how this would equate to road cars?

    Anyways

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I often wondered if the cars we had exported out here were modified to suit "Australian conditions" and in the prcess were rejetted etc for constantly hot temps?
    Nothing to back that up, but an interesting theory just the same as they did that with a lot of European appliances, sometimes with catastrphic results.


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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall
    I always thought a cold Ballarat winter was about the equal of a 403. They would start ok but had to run on choke forever, and I seem to recall driving through frosty nights over the Pentlands when the heater would run cold. A coat and gloves were essential.
    I sometimes wonder how those 402 commercials the Germans took east during the war coped with -40C.

    i used to start my 403 on 1/2 choke with a heavy frost or good layer of snow on it without any drama

    it would wind over maybe 3-4 times and away she would go

    let it sit for a few minutes to get the ice melted on the screen and push the choke in and drive off, no dramas

    the 604 i had in the same conditions was the same story
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    Default Charlie Boyle's law

    Now, enough of this silliness. Would anyone like to discuss the Adiabatic Lapse Rate?


    Wet or Dry?

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16



    When you get into electro-mechanical wizardry of an Mi16 for instance, I have been told that the heater and flap motor are set up to "fail to hot". The heater is always on, and the air is controlled by a flap, there is no tap as such to keep the hot water out of the interior of the car. Do local cars have that? They may, I wouldn't know, never owned one. And never will.

    Chris
    I think that that is the same in all cars. When my old Mazda's heater core decided to give up the ghost and discharge coolant all over my feet, instead of replacing it, I just bypassed the heater core hoses in the engine bay. I didn't have a heater in my car for 3 years, but I somehow managed. But I'm pretty sure that all cars run a constant flow of coolant through the heater matrix and you only control the heat by adjusting a flap.
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    Fellow Frogger! 505 to the max's Avatar
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    Heaters are overrated. I've been without one since the start of last year and it doesn't bother me anymore. Although I'm told there are registration issues with not having a heater with regard to demisting etc. Is this true?

    Edit: I'd like to have my own comment (above) stricken from the record. Heaters are nice. I'm just making excuses for not fixing the 505.
    Last edited by 505 to the max; 20th August 2005 at 11:58 PM.

  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    But I'm pretty sure that all cars run a constant flow of coolant through the heater matrix and you only control the heat by adjusting a flap.

    Not on a BX.



    Which may be one of the reasons the air con works as well as it does; no chance of heat adding load or affecting the air temperature.

    I think the risk of a heater affecting your chances of re-registration would be pretty slim. The traffic act hasn't been altered all that much over the last 100 years and it's only been in the last 20 that the've been installed in almost all cars as standard equipment. I've yet to see anyone doing a RWC who turns it on, starts the engine and waits for it to get hot (in some CXs he'd be waiting a long time) and the only way it could become a problem is if you made an issue of it and copped a "we could be heroes" type of inspector looking for something to pump his ego up on and expound his superior knowledge of the Law as she is read in the local bar on a Friday arvo.


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