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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Default News from abroad.

    Another one from overseas (no relation to the other one I posted) but an extension of what real French car owners/enthusiasts get out of their cars.

    Greetings from Spain!

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    Despite flogging the BX at 130kph for a 1000 miles nothing fell off apart from the tax disc.Not bad for a 30 bob Ebayer!

    Seen a few of the breed on the way, the oddest was a badged 19 turbo D with old style badges, no rear hoop spoiler and old style 17RD wheel trims. Odd.

    Anyways its 28 degrees here and the beer is cool.
    Unreliable cars hey? This guy is a DIYer and an Aussiefrogs member too BTW.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Alan,

    I don't think anyone in their right mind can say the older crop of Citroens are unreliable.

    It just seems to be the case with the newer ones, or anything that comes from the PSA group.

    It's not so much as the mechanicals, but more the electricals.

    Also, the fact that they interior seems so loosely put together, even tho quality materials are used.
    407 3.0L Exclusive (2007)

    Expert 2.0L (2009)

    Laguna 2.0L dCi (2007)

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Regardless, to do that in a car that cost around A$5 is not a real bad effort is it?
    If you want to see why French cars get a bad name, check out my "Cheap Pug" ad on the Peugeot forum (in 5 minutes)

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Uga Boga's Avatar
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    Yeah that's amazing!

    Too bad we don't get them as cheap here as they do in the U.K, otherwise, i'd have garages full of them.

    Older Pugs/Cits have been proven to be ultra reliable!
    407 3.0L Exclusive (2007)

    Expert 2.0L (2009)

    Laguna 2.0L dCi (2007)

  5. #5
    nJm
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    Yeah you can get great bargains over there. In a Top Gear episode last year the guys had 100 pounds to spend on a car. Two of them bought something for around 80 quid. Jeremy picked up a Volvo 760GLE with MOT and tax disk for ONE POUND. It ran really well. Hell even I'd buy an old Volvo for ~ $2.50.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uga Boga
    Alan,

    I don't think anyone in their right mind can say the older crop of Citroens are unreliable.

    It just seems to be the case with the newer ones, or anything that comes from the PSA group.

    It's not so much as the mechanicals, but more the electricals.

    Also, the fact that they interior seems so loosely put together, even tho quality materials are used.

    This happens with every Citroen ever made .... We had the traction, at first it was "to unreliable" we'd prefer the older model it's actually reliable........ Until time proved otherwise.... decades later the DS was introduced, however it was "to unreliable" ..... I think the Traction was still sold as well for the short time for the people that wanted "the reliable old traction".... After all who would want an "unreliable" complex DS.... Lets go foward another couple of decades ... We have the CX ..... Far to unreliable, we'd rather drive DS's, at least they were reliabe...........

    Now what do we have a couple of decades later .... The XM .... Far to unreliable, we'd rather drive CX's ..................

    Anyone seeing a patern Then we had the BX ......... "It's built like sh!t and will fall apart around you .... Who'd buy one, it'll be lucky to see 100,000kms".... Now we look for BX's 'cos everyone know you can't kill the bloody things even if you try, just like CX's will not die, DS .... Bloody tank like devices that will go forever if there not rusty etc..etc.. etc...

    No doubt in a couple of decades time, the same people will be complaining about the new Citroen and saying "remember the C4, now there was a good reliable car .... They don't make them like that anymore ".

    Strength and longetivity have always been a Citroen strong point, people just seem to think a 'new' car should be perfect from day one, and they should NEVER have a ratttle/squeak/issue with it .... Never going to happen ... No matter how expensive or new the car is.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Poo-Go's Avatar
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    This is an interesting point, Shane, and a fair observation. But, let me expand on why I believe these initial perceptions of unreliability were about, and why they're even more relevant now.

    I reckon it's a fair call for each of the models you mentioned to have been called unreliable when they came out. They were (and still are) of course, well designed and engineered. Only problem was that half of them were screwed together pretty horribly. It was this half (mercifully no longer with us, most examples) that gave the initial reputations.

    Then, we get the remaining "half" that were screwed together well, that are still around, and giving the newer reputation of being unbreakable. But, if you look at it they've only got that reputation 'cos it's the unbreakable examples still floating around. There's plenty of turds bearing the double chevron (yes, even CX Turbos) gone to the great French B road in the sky. How unbreakable were they?

    And, why this is relevant today is that modern Citroens are not, with few exceptions, the great cars their predecessors were. And they're certainly not designed to keep on going forever like the older ones. Before, you have had great cars that you took a lottery with when buying new. Now you have average, disposable cars that you are taking a lottery with when buying new.

    Anyone's thoughts?
    Care factor = -273.15șC

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! chris's Avatar
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    The old ones weren't designed to last forever, because they weren't designed to be worked on.

    The workshop manual for the GS shows some lovely pictures of the exhaust system -- engine very obviously all installed in the front subframe and the bodyshell nowhere to be seen! Wonderful for a production line, and an utter [email protected] for a mechanic. Shane will no doubt provide some similar comment for the CX.

    I don't know what the projected lifespan of a GS was, but it certainly wasn't 20+ years. Some "replaceable" things are only replaceable because it happened to be easier to manufacture them that way, e.g. the support tubes for the rear swingarms.

    The reverse of the coin was that Citroen traditionally made things to fanatically close tolerances, on the order of .003mm for a height-corrector slide. The GS engine doesn't have a head gasket; 30 years later the two metal surfaces still make a perfect gas-tight seal. When you can build things like that, they'll keep going until the car around them has rusted away completely.

    I'm dubious that the modern Citroens are built to those kinds of specs...

    Chris
    GS 1220 break. Beige cars go faster

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Yep, back to the old story; lack of info to owners from the makers and low service standard from dealers/repairers.
    All brands of cars have their share of dogs. All brands of that era had problems with the way they were screwed together in some cases or had major design flaws in others.
    Why are there no XK - XP Falcons around now? How about Holdens from FX - HJ? Could it be that most of the Falcons of that era had ball joints that seperated whilst mobile, spat a front wheel and often resulted in a cartwheel rollover? How many Holdens broke in half due to the build up of mud and resultant rust just below the front seat passengers and drivers feet that caused the car to break in half in a prang? How many VWs snapped crankshafts, Zephyrs and Falcons drop the circlips on the cluster and cause the 2nd and reverse to engage simultaneously? How many grey sideplate engines had gudgeon knock? How many VWs caught fire and totally burnt out and how many rolled over mysteriously? How many Toyotas cooked engines due to the lack of an internal spring in the pump intake hose and no low water warning buzzer? How many Mazdas broke crankshafts? How many Mercs cracked heads and cooked engines? How many BMWs had the crappy metal in their blocks just turn to shit on them? The lsit goes on and on.
    Having worked at a Ford franchise and then one that handled Toyota and to a lesser extent Mercedes, Hino, Mitsubishi and Isuzu as well as general used cars of the era, I was all too familiar with the fact that when someone brought a car in for appraisal, it was more of a case of looking out for known faults more than looking over the whole vehicle, because they ALL had their failings.
    French cars were less vulnerable than most to this phenomena. In that case, you gave a price based on its merits.
    What was the biggest bogey of French cars back even in the days of the Traction? "It'll cost a fortune if anything goes wrong" this was carried on with the D series, then comes the CX and we were told that they were so complicated to work on that even in the UK, you had to take your car to a backyarder to get any work because the dealers refused due to the complexity. What a weak admission from a supposed "Tradesman" What caused the early demise mechanically? (Forget the tin worms at this stage) C-matics were taboo; so much so I was once offered a manual box installed for $850 if I bought a C-matic because "nobody can fix 'em" crap!! I wasn't much interested in them due to all the fairy stories I'd read. I eventually bought one. Probably the most fascinating vehicle and simplest system it's possible to get in a car; magic. Most I have ever seen that were faulty had electrical problems, often just needing either a relay, clean & adjust or at worst the wrong ATF put into them. I also looked at a CX back in the days when they sold for around $10,000 that was for sale for $2500 because "the suspension is broken and unfixable" and arrived in Brisbane just in time to find a guy priming the pump and then driving off.
    BXs were scrapped overseas due to the front struts "collapsing" but now we know they can simply be lubed using a system devised not by "tradesmen" but a bunch of scruffy DIYers (as they are considered in some circles) and if you owned a 16V then every 80K klms or 4 years, prices of up to =A$1000 were charged because you needed a "special tool" to do it properly and were charged =A$450 for them to check it if you fitted it yourself; a mean feat when we discovered that practically none had the gadget and those who did couldn't or didn't use it. so cars were left to exceed the maintenance schedules and as a result, belts broke and cars were scrapped. So again, I don't think in all honesty the cars can be held to blame to the extent they usually are. All cars get certain amount of dodgy service work, but French get it more than most.
    Closer to home, one of my sons has bought an Mi16; lovely car, owned by an elderly couple originally but sold to a younger level headed fellow who through various outlets managed to spend $6500 on it. Eventuakky, he gave up and sold it to his brother who again is a nice level headed guy, not a thrash the guts out type, who through others spent a further $3500 basically redoing all that his brother had done. He gave up on it as he was just about sick of pulling the head off and the engine out trying to sort the problems.
    An examination discovered that the valve stem seals hadn't been driven home properly as a result it went through 5 litres of 25W60 oil in 400 klms when we drove it home.
    It is hoped to have it back on the road within a month after fitting a new set of seals and fitting new seals on the power steering ram....I'll put this even more into perspective; it's done 118K Klms..............all it needed was a bit of careful work and an attention to detail to sort it.
    The blame still comes back to where we keep putting it and nobody has yet proven me wrong, afterall, the examples I've used above are all ones I'm aware of first hand and the reason some of us keep trying to tell owners on here that if they can't DIY, then at least find a proper tradesman who will look after both your car and your pocket.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Another one!!

    Being a new member to the group I don't know how many of you know of M&C LOCKWOOD of Bradford. Malcolm is a Citroen enthusiast and is involved with the CCC northern section. I have dealt with him for some years now and always found him very fair. His prices usually cheaper than GSF. Now for the really interesting bit, he still runs a BX 19TGD estate with almost 400,000 miles on the clock, I know this to be gen because I sold him it.
    They just keep coming.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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