NSW RTA = Laughing Stock
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  1. #1
    XTC
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    Default NSW RTA = Laughing Stock

    Frogs on the List as TOOO dangerous.

    XANTIA ACTIVA TURBO CT 5D HATCHBACK TURBO 4 1998 cc TURBO MPFI 5M
    XANTIA VSX TURBO CT 5D HATCHBACK TURBO 4 1998 cc TURBO EFI 5M
    MEGANE SPORT X84 5D HATCHBACK TURBO 4 1998 cc TURBO MPFI 6M

    Amazed the Alfa 147 GTA didn't get on, yet a 350Z did ???

    Poor Saab owners .. the RTA has NO idea ... morons.

    http://drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=9988


    RTA in a fine mess over new P-plate restrictions
    The Sydney Morning Herald
    Friday July 15 2005

    Restrictions on cars that novice motorists are allowed to drive have some embarrassing anomalies. Some slow cars with world-class safety have been placed on the banned list. BILL McKINNON reports.



    The release on Monday by the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority of a 102-page list of cars now off limits to P-plate drivers has created widespread confusion and concern, not least, it seems, within the RTA itself.

    Drive's attempts this week to clarify with the RTA exactly which cars are banned for P-plate drivers, why and under what circumstances, have produced few answers.

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    The RTA has already modified the list of banned cars, and the criteria that determine whether a car is included.

    Parents and P-platers who own cars on the banned list cannot be certain about whether or not they are now in breach of the new regulations, due to a lack of detail to information that is constantly being updated by the RTA.
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    The initial list included cars with eight or more cylinders, a turbocharged or supercharged engine (diesels are exempt), engine performance modifications or high-performance six-cylinder engines.

    On licences obtained from Monday, P1 or P2 licence holders who drive a banned car face seven demerit points and a $375 fine.

    The list was drawn up by the RTA on the basis, it claims, of vehicles over-represented in novice-driver crashes. The RTA could provide Drive with no evidence of this; neither has it been able to provide evidence to the NRMA of a link between P-plate driver deaths and the power of their cars.

    The list covers everything from a 1960 Bentley Continental Drophead Coupe to a 2005 Porsche 911 turbo. The list also includes several cars eminently suitable for P-plate drivers, in that they score five stars out of five in NCAP crash tests, have sophisticated driving aids such as anti-lock brakes and stability control, and use low-powered supercharged or turbo-charged petrol engines, designed for driveability and economy rather than outright performance.

    These cars include the Mercedes-Benz C180K/C200K (with 105kW and 120kW outputs, they are far less powerful than the average Commodore or Falcon) and the Saab 9-3/9-5 (several engines, starting from 110kW.)

    The RTA's website on Monday made no mention of exemptions for these cars. When Drive asked why they were included on the banned list, the RTA said they "may be exempt where a driver can demonstrate this type of car to be the principal family vehicle". Other safe, strong, moderately powered cars on the banned list which Drive would be happy to put its teenagers into include the Audi A4 1.8T (120kW), pre-2005 VW Golf GTi (110kW), Mercedes E200K (120kW), Mini Cooper S (125kW); VW 1.8 Passat (pre-2002; 110kW) and Volvo V70 2.4T (125 kW).

    It seems that exemptions, which cost $23, may soon prove to be the rule, particularly as parents who own a car now deemed unsuitable for their P-plated offspring face the prospect of having to sell it, or buy an extra car for the youngsters to drive.

    We asked the RTA what parents in this situation should do. We received no answer, apart from: "Exemptions based on engine size are not available for family reasons".

    The criteria for obtaining an exemption are vague and open to wide interpretation.

    Exemptions "may" be granted if a P-plater has to drive a banned car for employment purposes, lives in the country and has no alternative but to drive a V8 or 4WD, or lives as part of a family which has as its principal vehicle (i.e., registered to a parent) a low-performance, turbocharged engine vehicle.

    Exemptions "may" be granted "in exceptional circumstances". Exceptional circumstances are not defined.

    However, according to the RTA's website, owning a prohibited vehicle does not make you exempt. Drive asked the RTA if this meant that a person who, before Monday, had already bought a car now included on the banned list and planned to use it as transport on obtaining Ps, would now have to sell it. Not necessarily it seems. Such a person "may" apply for an exemption to be allowed to drive the car.

    And what about insurance? We asked NRMA Insurance if P-platers who drive their parents car, now on the banned list, void the comprehensive insurance policy. What if the parents have already paid a premium on the policy, so their teenager can drive the car? Do they get a refund?

    "We will review claims on an individual basis," a spokesman told Drive.

    While Ford and Holden V8s - going all the way back to late 1960s GTs, Kingswoods and Monaros - are on the banned list, the current model six-cylinder Falcon, which has a 182 kW engine, and the VZ Commodore, which has a new 175kW or 190kW V6, are permitted, even though both make much more power than many banned cars.

    Mazda's high performance, 177kW RX8 sports coupe also escapes the banned list.

    Holden describes the 190kW V6 as a "high-performance" engine and claims its torque range "is a performance attribute normally associated with V8 engines".

    When Drive asked the RTA why the current Falcon and Commodore sixes were not included on the banned list, it replied that "the scheme does not intend to ban the average family vehicle".

    So how much power should an average family vehicle make? What, indeed, is an average family vehicle? In today's diverse market, no such car exists.

    The anomalies and uncertainty surrounding the RTA's new restrictions have aroused the NRMA's ire. It was not consulted when the banned list was compiled.

    It disagrees with the criteria for inclusion.

    "People can cause injury or fatality in any vehicle, even at relatively low speeds," says NRMA spokesman Jack Haley.

    "Safety is more important than performance, and P-plate drivers should be allowed to drive vehicles now on the banned list if they have a four or five-star NCAP crash-test rating," he says.

    The car industry also seems to have been taken by surprise. "We applaud the sentiment, but we question the logic of it," Mercedes-Benz's national sales manager, Clyde Campbell, told Drive.

    "The consequences do not appear to have been properly thought through," he says. "In some cases it may force P-platers out of safe cars into less safe ones."

    Victoria has a similar list of banned vehicles. However it uses precise formulae to determine whether or not a car is banned. A high-powered vehicle is defined as one with a power-to-weight ratio of more than 125kW/tonne, or an engine capacity/weight ratio of more than 3.5 litres/tonne.

    Drive asked the RTA why it did not simply adopt the Victorian criteria and list. Its reply claimed that their method is "problematic" from an enforcement and community understanding perspective. Which does rather seem to sum up what's been happening this week. For more details, go to www.rta.nsw.gov.au.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    The Simca Vedette is also banned. Now there's a high powered vehicle.

    Troy.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    What a load of crap. Vic rules look like the go to me.

    Dave


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    Fellow Frogger! bigbadbyrnes's Avatar
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    The RTA is a laughing stock.

    Honestly, how lame can they get? Why didnít they adopt the Vic rules? Cause confusion?

    Oh how very thorny it would be to expect the average P plate driver and their families to have to sit down with an abacus and logan slide rule to determine what their car's kw/kg ratio is.

    Instead, now the simply have to look it up on the RTA website ~ and Heaven help them if they ever want to try to figure out why their 700c Turbo Die-hat-sue Charade (a twenty-two second ľ mile car), with its mind numbing amount of muscle, is now forbidden because itís dangerously powerful.

    My God.

    Doesn't the RTA understand that all the figures about BHP or kw output and how much toque an engine generates is all almost completely meaningless without considering the weight of the vehicle/carriage being powered by said engine? Perhaps I expect too much from a state public organisation that is concerned entirely with motor vehicles?

    Of course, power to weight isnít everything either. What emphasis would you put on a carís handling and brakes in terms of attributes that make a Ďperformanceí car? Thankfully, the RTA hasnít taken these into consideration Ė although that may be because good handling and good brakes (which you would find on a real Ďperformanceí car) inherently make the car safer for anyone, even P platers, to drive.




    I hope I can continue to slip under the radar with my 172 (Ö the RTAís vetoing radar at least).

    Best of British luck, fellow P platers.
    '87 Camry 2.0ltr injected---------5min 11 sec
    '85 Charade turbo 700cc----------5min 06 sec RESPECT
    '99 GX Impreza 2.0ltr-------------5min 02 sec
    '99 WRX w/ hi-flo exhaust------4min 46 sec
    Byrnesy's 172---------------------- 4min 25 sec

  5. #5
    XTC
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    So buy your car in QLD and have it registered there ? .. what if you move states? what if you're visiting? What ever happened to the idea of "nationalising" the systems ? You know what the "R" stands for in RTA ?

    I see all non-turbo RX7's slip under the radar. And I'm sure the SYD set that buy Cooper S for daughter won't be happy.

    - xTc -

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    That's hillarious ... They allow the new fowlcan to be driven

    That's more powerful than the bulk of the cars on there list. It's a hell of a lot faster than the 5.8litre V8 XD (probably the biggest engined fowlcan ever).

    Really though... It is an impossible situation to control... Now I'm off to email the RTA site and ask why the RCS and GTi180 are not on that list

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Now I'm off to email the RTA site and ask why the RCS and GTi180 are not on that list
    LOL Glad i'm on my opens.

    Dave


  8. #8
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    Geez,

    For once it seems that the Vic Government/Vic Roads actually has an intelligent system...

    Power to weight is the only logistically implementable/fair way to judge a cars general performance...

    If memory serves, in Vic if a car has more than 120kw per tonne then it can't be driven by a P-Plater...

    On the Vic system P Platers aren't allowed to drive BA Falcons and their Holden V6 counterparts...

    It also makes calculating a cars standing very easy...

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! 206 RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    That's hillarious ... They allow the new fowlcan to be driven

    That's more powerful than the bulk of the cars on there list. It's a hell of a lot faster than the 5.8litre V8 XD (probably the biggest engined fowlcan ever).

    Really though... It is an impossible situation to control... Now I'm off to email the RTA site and ask why the RCS and GTi180 are not on that list

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Pretty sure they have a DB of cars and they just applied filters. No V8's, no turbo's, no superchargers etc... No intellect.

    The 180 and the RCS are both allowed by Victoria's RTA as they fall under the power to weight ratio.
    Clint

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  10. #10
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Can't believe my daughter won't be able to drive my Aston DB9...
    - Lincoln

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  11. #11
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    The whole thing is an absolute joke.....

  12. #12
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashvsaod
    The 180 and the RCS are both allowed by Victoria's RTA as they fall under the power to weight ratio.
    If MistaReno's figures are correct, the Clio should be on the banned list ?

    RCS 131kw / 1039kg = 7.93kg/kw
    180 130kw / 1100kg = 8.46kg/kw

    When 120kw / 1000kg = 8.33kg/kw

    Is there a Vic list somewhere ?

    - xTc -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    On the Vic system P Platers aren't allowed to drive BA Falcons and their Holden V6 counterparts...
    Really ?!! About time - have always thought those things had far too much poke (without the handling to back it up) for the average new driver. BUT - does it get policed?
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Fellow Frogger! 206 RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC
    If MistaReno's figures are correct, the Clio should be on the banned list ?

    RCS 131kw / 1039kg = 7.93kg/kw
    180 130kw / 1100kg = 8.46kg/kw

    When 120kw / 1000kg = 8.33kg/kw

    Is there a Vic list somewhere ?

    - xTc -
    Yep, here you go.

    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/VRNE/...B0019D1F0?open

    It states this list is not exhaustive and instructs you to calculate it yourself.

    Calculation:
    In doing calculations, weight is specified in tonnes (1000kg = 1 tonne); capacity is specified in litres (1000ml = 1 litre); power is specified in kilowatts (kw) and is measured at the engine flywheel.

    GTi-180
    130/1100*1000=120kw per tonne
    Clio Sport 182 is
    131/1035*1000=130kw per tonne.
    Megane 225
    165/1365*1000=120kw per tonne.
    MkV Golf GTi
    141/1328*1000=110kw per tonne.

    So Victoria's scheme is flawed also.

    So legally the Clio cannot be driven by P platers in Victoria. I stand corrected.
    Last edited by 206 RC; 20th July 2005 at 04:44 PM.
    Clint

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  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    Really ?!! About time - have always thought those things had far too much poke (without the handling to back it up) for the average new driver. BUT - does it get policed?
    NNNNNNNOOOOOoooooooooo, don't go there ..... We have done this to many times before

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  16. #16
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    In a way it could be a blessing in disguise. Just think of the increased S/H value of all non turbo performance cars like RSCís, 205/206 GTIís etc, not to mention possible new car sales volumes because they can no longer have turbo cars, but want to have something sporty.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    NNNNNNNOOOOOoooooooooo, don't go there ..... We have done this to many times before

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Got a deal for you - I'll stop going on about how dangerous Falcdores are, and you never mention the phrase "proper suspension" again
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Can't believe my daughter won't be able to drive my Aston DB9...
    - Chris

    ps. linc your a cak!
    ... ptui!

  19. #19
    XTC
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    I love the Bullet Roadsters figures in the Vic list .. and someone at VICROADS should learn about significant figures .. not much point in reporting down to 7 decimal places

    - xTc -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! XM Mechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashvsaod
    The 180 and the RCS are both allowed by Victoria's RTA as they fall under the power to weight ratio.
    They are both underpowered anyway. Some owners are constantly trying to modify them and squeeze more out of them anyway.
    Regards,

    Garth.


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  21. #21
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XM Mechanic
    They are both underpowered anyway. Some owners are constantly trying to modify them and squeeze more out of them anyway.
    I wonder if the XM is on any banned lists...
    Regards,

    Simon

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  22. #22
    UFO
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    After last weekend mine should be!
    Craig K
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  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206
    I wonder if the XM is on any banned lists...
    XM CT turbo (NOT a fast car)... a 2litre low pressure turbo in a big XM is ... not fast at all...

    Apparantly the 24valve V6 manual is a really rorty beast, however I'm sure there not on the list

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  24. #24
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    - Chris

    ps. linc your a cak!
    Thanks!

    In all honesty, I'm not impressed with the banning of all Saabs and Volvos. My next car is most probably going to be a Volvo V50 T5... actually... I doubt I'd let my daughter drive it though! It is a bit indecently quick in a straight line, might have to just subccumb and get a regular NA car for the daughter...
    - Lincoln

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  25. #25
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    XM CT turbo (NOT a fast car)... a 2litre low pressure turbo in a big XM is ... not fast at all...

    Apparantly the 24valve V6 manual is a really rorty beast, however I'm sure there not on the list

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    As this model was never officially sold in Aus, it seems to not appear on the RTA list. AFAIK there are only two in Aus - one belongs to our club Secretary and is an auto sedan and the other is a wagon in Melbourne.
    Craig K
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