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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default wagons ho?

    Guys

    Just need some unbiased opinion -

    We maybe looking at purchasing a wagon of some description in the near future - the usual need: more space - family's getting bigger...Looking around the $10K perhaps a little more.

    The large wagons I can think of are:
    Pugg 505
    Volvo several models
    Merc 230TE, 300TE

    Not too many of any around at the moment (in SA), except for some nasty looking Volvo 240's.

    Has anyone had much experience with any of these? Naturally I'm expecting a lot of pro-505 comments but I haven't quite ruled out the others just yet.

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    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
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  2. #2
    Simon's Avatar
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    I was looking at both W123 and W124 Mercedes early to mid last year as a replacement for the old 12. I tend to have odd fads where I get a bug in my head that the old 12 is going to keel over some time or other then consider alternatives. Thinking that a W123 is about a nice size, has air, cruise etc and a price tag of below $10K and a seeming good reputation I thought it may be another 10 year purchase and started to look for a nice well kept car. Something good, solid and reliable, as well as being a car where decent parts can be obtained as the car gets older.

    With the W123 the one to go for is post 1/84 which can be run exclusively on 91 octane unleaded if desired, these coincided with a slight upgrade at the time.

    What I found surprised me though. All the half dozen cars (all W123ís mix of 230E and 280E apart from two W124 230Eís) I looked at (all between 120-280,000kís) ramped and stamped by BEA or good service history with specialists, had had the front ends rebuilt, basically bushes, pivots, bearings and tierod ends in most cases, between 120-160,000kís, at a cost of around $800-$1500. It seemed to be a regular service item from what I found. Two had rebuilt auto trans. Also on the later W123 230E, the timing chain is a single row affair, this can be prone to stretching and may need replacing around the 200,000k mark. Needless to say these cars removed that suitable 12 replacement bug from my head and the old 12 still keeps soldiering on.

    Probably just something to figure into the equation if considering a Mercedes anyway.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default Mmm

    my research with some specialists is turning up the same info.
    still, they have their appeal.
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
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    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
    1986 25GTX

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Wagons, Ho?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu17
    Guys

    Just need some unbiased opinion -

    We maybe looking at purchasing a wagon of some description in the near future - the usual need: more space - family's getting bigger...Looking around the $10K perhaps a little more.

    The large wagons I can think of are:
    Pugg 505
    Volvo several models
    Merc 230TE, 300TE

    Not too many of any around at the moment (in SA), except for some nasty looking Volvo 240's.

    Has anyone had much experience with any of these? Naturally I'm expecting a lot of pro-505 comments but I haven't quite ruled out the others just yet.
    Stu,
    The 505 wagon is a great bit of gear, lots of space and having the possible advantage of you being more familiar with the make.

    Your, "nasty looking Volvo 240's". In my 20+ years of working on Volvos the 240 series were a reliable honest car.
    If your choice comes to the Volvo 240 buy the last of the series, this will have the B 230F engine with later Bosch LE onwards injection system and catalyst etc. If you do mostly country driving go for the manual trans. If not the automatics were the best for city use, the later Aisin Warner were very reliable.
    Dont get sucked in to the 740 series, the interiors deteriorated something dreadfull. AVOID any Volvo with the V6.

  5. #5
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    how about this ??

    405 SRDT wagon


    economic and modern... and all you have to do say it's not the best and you get it for free, or sue them for false advertsising

    a bargin for what it is, and the condition if you ask me... just depends if you can put up with a big front wheel drive pug
    Last edited by orestes; 15th February 2005 at 05:12 PM.

  6. #6
    Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu17
    still, they have their appeal.
    Exactly, the fact that the trim and MB Tex is virtually unmarked at 20 odd years old and the nice feel of the controls (steering apart) and solid nature of the car itself attracted, and sort of pointed to a car destined for a long life. Just the thought of having to rebuild the front end every so often didnít appeal, having to do a clutch job on an early 12 every 120-160,000kís is bad enough! I guess I have been spoilt by the Renault engineering which isnít as obvious :-)

  7. #7
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Steer clear of early Mercedes the back seats are awful.I went in one and it was the most painful experience....

  8. #8
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    or there is this

    MAKE/MODEL: Peugeot 505
    YEAR: 1992
    ODOMETER: 175,000kms
    PRICE: $9,500.00
    BODY: station wagon
    TRANSMISSION: automatic

    Peugeot 505 GTI 1992 rear wheel drive silver station wagon 2.2L automatic, 175000kms, 8 seats, new starter and alternator good tyres WPO-349 very good condition $9500 negotiable LEAWOOD GARDENS 08-8370 8552.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default nasty owners not nasty cars...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    ...Your, "nasty looking Volvo 240's". In my 20+ years of working on Volvos the 240 series were a reliable honest car...
    No argument there.
    It's just the examples we were turning up. If there was an RSPCA for cars...

    The 406SRDT sounds interesting...
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
    Previous
    1974 12GL
    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
    1986 25GTX

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    Steer clear of early Mercedes the back seats are awful.I went in one and it was the most painful experience....

    try sitting in them next time
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    C'mon guys,

    there is always *real* cars too. CX wagons always seem to pull much less than $10,000. You'd want to be a real enthusiest 'cos they never sold 'em out here. The have all the usual CX issues & plusses. There bloody hhhhuuuuugggggeeee inside.

    BX wagons I would have thought would be at the top of your list. Cheap, load leveling suspension, reliable, nippy... The wagons always ride better from Citroen (the wheelbase is usually longer) --unlike everyone else that has to put truck springs under the back so they can take a load without dragging there arse up the road (ever noticed the inferior stationwagons riding on antiquated springs are jittery as hell in the back).

    Xantia would be better still, but most likely out of your price range.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: It always suprises me that people are always happy to look at poogoes, but what is basically the identical car, but with *real* suspension doesn't even get a thought (even though they are usually much cheaper, not to mention better in a lot of ways).
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  12. #12
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    It always suprises me that people are always happy to look at poogoes, but what is basically the identical car, but with *real* suspension doesn't even get a thought (even though they are usually much cheaper, not to mention better in a lot of ways).
    it's because real cars have springs shane also citroens are bloody ugly and soooo expensive when things go wrong as well as that when something does go wrong your mechanic will see it as a cash cow
    Last edited by orestes; 15th February 2005 at 06:09 PM.

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    it's because real cars have springs shane also citroens are bloody ugly and soooo expensive when things go wrong as well as that when something does go wrong your mechanic will see it as a cash cow
    Funny, that's what everyone usually says about poogoes

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default size matters...

    Shane, I'd never rule out a Citroen, but as you say the CX wagon was never sold here.
    The BX/Xantia, I think, would be found wanting in size, which, after all is our sole object...

    Picture Chevy Chase loading the Griswald's wagon....
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
    Previous
    1974 12GL
    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
    1986 25GTX

  15. #15
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu17
    Shane, I'd never rule out a Citroen, but as you say the CX wagon was never sold here.
    The BX/Xantia, I think, would be found wanting in size, which, after all is our sole object...

    Picture Chevy Chase loading the Griswald's wagon....
    Yep,

    BX/Xantias are identical in size to the 405/406 ... After all the are the same car with proper suspension.

    To get a decent sized wagon now .... There really isn't any, manufacturers can't be bothered with them as they don't sell. You see everyone wants 3tonne medium rigid trucks to run the 1.5kiddies around in

    If you want a project apparantly there's a CX wagon (most likely an 8seater) going through the auctions here. A couple of hundred bux would probably buy it. It's had a minor underbonnet fire so would be a peice of p!ss to get back on the road.

    As a bonus you could probably sell it for quite a profit if you decided it wasn't the car for you.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default no extra projects for me...

    You sound like the one for it Shane.

    A bit of forward planning maybe?

    Might make the girl nervous though when she sees the 8 seats...
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
    Previous
    1974 12GL
    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
    1986 25GTX

  17. #17
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu17
    You sound like the one for it Shane.

    A bit of forward planning maybe?

    Might make the girl nervous though when she sees the 8 seats...
    you can sell them at a profit there are people selling the naming rights of there children for $1 mil +++

  18. #18
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    it's because real cars have springs shane also citroens are bloody ugly and soooo expensive when things go wrong as well as that when something does go wrong your mechanic will see it as a cash cow
    CitroŽns have springs - they're called spheres and the spring is the diaphragm against high pressure nitrogen. But hey, never let facts get in the way of a good argument

    If "your" mechanic sees a brand of car as a cash cow it's easy - change mechanics.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default 505 Wagon prices?

    $9500 for a '92 505 seems a little high.

    There are 405s and 406s for similar prices.

    What does everyone else think?

    I was thinking a good 505 wagon should be about $6000-7000 tops.
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
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    1974 12GL
    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
    1986 25GTX

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    Yep,

    BX/Xantias are identical in size to the 405/406 ... After all the are the same car with proper suspension.
    The hydraulic suspension is great, but why is it that the Peugeot equivalent tends to provide better communication and can be driven hard more confidently. Not that the Citroen equivalent is a bad drive, just the Peugeot equivalent just seems a little more friendly to the driver in 'spirited' driving conditions.

    Proper suspension?

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    The hydraulic suspension is great, but why is it that the Peugeot equivalent tends to provide better communication and can be driven hard more confidently. Not that the Citroen equivalent is a bad drive, just the Peugeot equivalent just seems a little more friendly to the driver in 'spirited' driving conditions.

    Proper suspension?
    OK, that's definitely a can of worms.
    Personally, wouldn't that depend on how well the car is sorted?

    Anyway, just did a pretty thorough search and found some other interesting ones: a few 240's, some 850's (including a T5), and even some 940's and a V70 (talk about depreciation ). If anyone knows what to look for about them, feel free - (have no experience in their front drive 5 cylinder stuff...).
    Must admit that a Pug would probably be first choice depending on $. Also, there are a few W124s around that are nearing the range....

    Arranging some test drives soon
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
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    1974 17TL
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    1974 17TS
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  22. #22
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    The last Merdedes I sat in was a E180

  23. #23
    Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney
    The last Merdedes I sat in was a E180
    And the point being?

    Besides, what is a Merdedes E180? Sounds like some Chinese non-licenced clone of a Mercedes. Or some cheap poor quality VHS video tape, but unless you were really really small, you wouldn't be able to sit in a video tape..........

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Stu17,
    For $5000+ you should get a very good 505 wagon. There may be some around for the 9,500 but I doubt that too many people would pay that today for one. Dealers may push red-book values but you have to look at real world values. If you want large wagon, go for the 505 in as late a model as you can get. If the manual doesn't worry you, that'd be a better choice, for sheer drivability.
    That 405 wagon is a good buy, Max is actually a member of aussiefrogs and has been involved in the Renault club here in Qld in the past. He posted details about the car in 'for sale' a month or so back. Peugeot 405 Srdt Station Wagon.

    If you find anything around Brisbane I'd be happy to look at it for you if needed.
    Chris
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  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Stu17's Avatar
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    Default E180?

    Was that the nasty back seat?

    Aren't they the "compact" C class from only 10yrs ago?

    The W124 is the E class from mid '80s to mid '90s - the seats seem OK.
    Stu
    2008 Grand Scenic
    2000 Xantia SX
    :2006 Disco 3
    :mercedes: 1992 300TE
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    1974 17TL
    1976 12GL Wagon
    1974 17TS
    1982 20TS
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