Ticket for "not displaying p-plates" - help me keep my licence!
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Ticket for "not displaying p-plates" - help me keep my licence!

    Hey guys

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    I've just been reading a few of the threads here and found the replies to be really helpful so I thought I would ask for some advice myself

    The story is... I'm a p-plater and I got pulled over for speeding a few days ago. I was doing 113km (in a 100km zone) but since I was on my red p's this was 23km over the 90km limit. I have no problem with this though, I was doing the wrong thing and deserved to get the ticket.

    What I am not happy about though, is that the cop decided to also give me a ticket for "not complying with p1 licence - not displaying p plates". I have a p-plate displayed on the front of the car, corner stuck behind the number plate. No problem. On the back of the car I cannot do this due to the shape of the number plate area. So I have the plate displayed on the rear window, on the inside, held up to the glass by the brake light. There is no way you could look at the back of the car and NOT see it. Yet this cop told me I am not displaying p-plates.

    The speeding ticket carries 3 demerits. Like I said, I don't have a problem with this. But not displaying p-plates is 2 demerits. Obviously this will put me over the 4 point maximum for a p1 licence, and thus my licence would be suspended for 3 months. There is no way I am going to stand by and have my licence taken over this absolute rubbish "offence", so I am looking for any advice anyone can give me.

    Should I go to court and fight it? Write to the infringement bureau and hope they can waive the ticket?

    I thought I would be clever and quickly get my green p's (more demerits) as I have been eligible for a while. In fact I went to the RTA and passed the test the next day. However after doing some reading I know this won't work as the points are back-dated to the date of the offence

  2. #2
    UFO
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    Well, I was skeptical at first, because "when I was a lad" we had to display Ls or Ps beside the rego plate. This is somewhat impractical on some modern cars and besides some twit will flog them. I just found this


    display of P plates (red P on a white background)
    that must be clearly visible on the front and back
    of the vehicle;
    I reckon you are in the right. If the cop wants to argue why the plate above the rear brake light is not visible, you may wish to ask why the ADR specifies the location of the high level brake light to be there in the first place.

    Good on you for admitting the error of your ways in speeding. Now don't do it again or you'll get no ice cream for a month Mr!
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  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Thanks UFO. Do you think I should take the matter to court? The p-plates were definitely visible on the front and back.

    I think the cop must have been really looking for something else to pin on me, especially since he had already written the ticket when he came and asked me "did you know you don't have a p-plate on the back?"

    After I pointed out the p-plate he went on to say "well it needs to be down here somewhere (pointing to boot/number plate area)... you might need to get a bracket or something... (realising that the number plate is in a very recessed area)... I don't know how you could do it"

    very dodgy methinks

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzood
    After I pointed out the p-plate he went on to say "well it needs to be down here somewhere (pointing to boot/number plate area)... you might need to get a bracket or something... (realising that the number plate is in a very recessed area)... I don't know how you could do it" very dodgy methinks
    Affraid court is the only way .. if it's as you said it is (the officer said you had a plate), then he has to stand up and lie to the court .. yes it happens, but it's your word against his ... plus if you cop the speeding fine sweet it may be favourable. Shame you or one of your mates doesn't have a photo of your car with the plate on it .. at least it proves you put it where you say you do.

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    A picture is worth a thousand words,so take a photo of front & back of vehicle and go to court. The copper will either lie, or say you did have them on but in the wrong spot required by legislation. The judge may meet you half way, by recording a conviction but allow you to keep your points. The law and common sense are poles apart, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Considering the number of Ricers that drive around with their P plate stuffed almost completely under the Number plate so that it is deliberatly not visable but there, perhaps you could take some other photos and ask which of these less visable mounting techiques would be more appropriate.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    be a hard battle

    seeing as the plate has to be visible on the front and back of the car the same as number plates have to be visible on the front and back of the car

    seeing as they also make magnetic versions as well they could also push that point if it's not possible to affix the plastic version near the vicinity of the number plate

    if they come to the conclusion that the back of the car is in fact the general area to which the number plate if affixed you are in the poo

    i do seem to remember something about 'P' plates bieng allowed to be displayed in the front and rear screens of a car but i can't be sure on that one

    i know in Vic they have been allowed for a many years now to have the plates on the inside of the front and rear screens

    i wish you all the best

    good luck
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    It used to be illegal to have them inside the car in NSW. But I get the impression the rules have changed now as you see so many P platers (and L platers) with them on the inside now.
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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Jester Fu.

    Thatís a bit harsh.

    GONZOOD,

    You can try to try going cap in hand admitting, the errors of your ways and hope for a kindly judge who will give you the benefit of doubt.

    Then again life is cruel but mercifully short.
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    bizzare. In Victoria, you would be done for having the P plate near the number plate - it has to be attached to the inside of the windscreen (above the rego sticker) and rear window.

    My brother never wore his P plates for his full 3 year probationary period - he drove a tweaked XP Foulcan which was a cop magnet in those days and he got sick of being pulled up all the time - lost the P plates and was left alone

    But I would take it to legal aid - they are free and give you some pointers on how to deal with it. This is obviously a bored cop having a bad day!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    bizzare. In Victoria, you would be done for having the P plate near the number plate - it has to be attached to the inside of the windscreen (above the rego sticker) and rear window.

    But I would take it to legal aid - they are free and give you some pointers on how to deal with it. This is obviously a bored cop having a bad day!
    In Tassie it is the same, the "P" plate has to be on the rear window!
    Why does something so simple change from state to state ?
    I would also agree that you go see legal aid. Is this is your first offense? If so, the court should be lenient. My cousin just got off a "u-turn @ traffic lights" fine as it was his first offence & he (or I ) didn't realize it was against the law.

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAUTY205
    My cousin just got off a "u-turn @ traffic lights" fine as it was his first offence & he (or I ) didn't realize it was against the law.
    Will
    Yet in Vic it's legal (well at least I think so, in WA it's certainly illegal and people get pinched for it). What happened to the the unified road rules ?

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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    This is straight from the NSW RTA site.
    If you did not comply with the rules as stated below, (as opposed to a bit of common sense), then you might be in for 3 months of first class walks.


    P1 drivers must:

    Have P plates (red P on white background) displayed conspicuously at the front and rear of the car when driving. If placing P signs on windows, they must be held against the glass, be displayed conspicuously in the lower left-hand (passenger) side of the windscreen and on the lower left-hand side of the rear facing window and must not be placed on any other part of the window area. If towing a trailer, a P plate must be on the back of the trailer.
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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    If you did not comply with the rules as stated below, (as opposed to a bit of common sense), then you might be in for 3 months of first class walks.
    I don't know what it's like around the country, but a large number of people seem to drive during their suspension period anyway ??

    Personally I've never been suspeneded (or had a single fine or point), BUT I have to admit I can't remember the last time I was RBT'd or asked for my licence even at a RBT, road side stops only happen usually if you are doing something wrong. So it begs the question, just how many unlicenced drivers are there on our roads ? Not to mention the uninsured ones.

    - xTc -
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    I think there was a figure of something like 1 in 25 are driving without one! (or on suspension)

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    I don't know what it's like around the country, but a large number of people seem to drive during their suspension period anyway ??

    Personally I've never been suspeneded (or had a single fine or point), BUT I have to admit I can't remember the last time I was RBT'd or asked for my licence even at a RBT, road side stops only happen usually if you are doing something wrong. So it begs the question, just how many unlicenced drivers are there on our roads ? Not to mention the uninsured ones.

    - xTc -
    Not worth it.

    If you get done while suspended then you will be walking for a looooong time.
    Big $$$$ fine.
    There is also the insurance factor. If involved in a dingle while suspended your 3rd party property insurance policy is as useful as government issue, non-absorbant, rear end cutting toilet paper.
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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    Not worth it.
    If you get done while suspended then you will be walking for a looooong time.
    Big $$$$ fine.
    Not suggesting he does this, but I've known people who have .. from all walks of life, from lawyers to labourers, just pray one never hits me !!

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911s
    A picture is worth a thousand words,so take a photo of front & back of vehicle and go to court. The copper will either lie, or say you did have them on but in the wrong spot required by legislation. The judge may meet you half way, by recording a conviction but allow you to keep your points. The law and common sense are poles apart, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Pity you didn't have a camera with you, the date/time on the image would have helped in court. Take a photo ASAP anyway.


    I aways carry my camera with me in the car...


    Good luck

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    If I were you I'd investigate getting your green P's. In the old days if you lost just 1 point on your P's you'd lose your license, so if you were within a couple of months of getting your blacks you'd take it to court and as long as it wasn't finalised until you'd got your blacks you'd be right.
    You could take it to court but technically you have broken the law by not displaying it in the correct place so basically you can't plead not guilty. The big problem is that even if you find an understanding magistrate and they give you what's known as a section 10 bond (found guilty with out proceeding to conviction) the gov't and RTA in their combined wisdom will still take the points off you. As for driving whilst disqualified, the penalties for this are the same as high range PCA including a possible gaol sentence. Is it worth the risk ?

  20. #20
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma
    This is straight from the NSW RTA site.
    If you did not comply with the rules as stated below, (as opposed to a bit of common sense), then you might be in for 3 months of first class walks.


    P1 drivers must:

    Have P plates (red P on white background) displayed conspicuously at the front and rear of the car when driving. If placing P signs on windows, they must be held against the glass, be displayed conspicuously in the lower left-hand (passenger) side of the windscreen and on the lower left-hand side of the rear facing window and must not be placed on any other part of the window area. If towing a trailer, a P plate must be on the back of the trailer.
    I saw that, interesting thing is though, if you have a look at the actual legislation (Road Transport (driver licensing) regulation 1999) all it says is this:
    (4) In addition to any other conditions that may be attached to the licence, a provisional P1 licence is subject to the following conditions:

    (a) in the case of a provisional P1 licence of class C, the holder must not drive any motor vehicle unless there is displayed conspicuously:

    (i) at the front and rear, or on the roof, of the vehicle, or

    (ii) if the vehicle is towing a trailer - either on the roof of the vehicle, or both on the front of the vehicle and on the rear of the trailer,

    so as to be visible from ahead of and behind the vehicle, a sign, issued or authorised by the Authority, displaying the letter "P" in red on a white background
    Anyway, I have taken some photos of the back of the car, this is in the exact place I pulled over, exact same time of day, only two days afterwards. In the second pic you can sort of see how the number plate is recessed and you cannot get a p plate in there. I'll let you decide for yourself whether this is "displayed conspicuously" or not.



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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    not bieng nasty but with having the spoiler on the rear of the car that 'P' plate and for that matter the brake light would be very hard to see when travelling behind your car

    if you sit in a car behind yours and have a look you will see what i mean
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    Jeez it pisses me off when some people know they are breaking the law then squeal like a cut pig when they get caught!

    Buddy, you did the crime, you got caught, now do the time.

    In the real world it's just "tough titty". Take it on the chin and next time stay close to the limit; that way you don't draw the crabs on yourself

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunky
    Jeez it pisses me off when some people know they are breaking the law then squeal like a cut pig when they get caught!
    Buddy, you did the crime, you got caught, now do the time.
    Settle, he's freely admitted to the speeding offence .. the original QUESTION was, is the P-Plate location OK or not ? So what do you think about the P-Plate question dunky? If it's NOT OK then I guess it's bad luck, if it IS OK some of our officers need a little re-education.

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  24. #24
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    not bieng nasty but with having the spoiler on the rear of the car that 'P' plate and for that matter the brake light would be very hard to see when travelling behind your car

    if you sit in a car behind yours and have a look you will see what i mean
    Hmmm... here is a photo I just took to test this out. This is from about 6-7 metres, with the camera 1.2 metres off the ground. The plate does become obscured as the camera is lowered, but I think 1.2 metres is a fair estimation of normal eye-level when driving?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ticket for "not displaying p-plates" - help me keep my licence!-pplate3.jpg  

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Poo-Go's Avatar
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    I was sympathetic with your plight 'til I saw that you had placed the P plate to obscure the brake light. Consider yourself lucky you didn't get done for that as well.

    'Rambo also makes a valid point with regard to the spoiler.

    I'm not saying don't fight it, but I'd be very hesitant to bring out a photo like that as evidence in court, showing as it does the obscured brake light.
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