Police Radar & "Approxmiate Readings" in NSW
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  1. #1
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    Default Police Radar & "Approxmiate Readings" in NSW

    Anyone know the legalities of an office "estimating" your speed, as you were travelling behind another vehicle?

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    i.e. since you were directly behind the vehicle which the radar picked up, you get the same "approximated" speed reading on the offense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Anyone know the legalities of an office "estimating" your speed, as you were travelling behind another vehicle?

    i.e. since you were directly behind the vehicle which the radar picked up, you get the same "approximated" speed reading on the offense!
    \

    It's generally not the done thing unless both vehicles were travelling at warp factor 10 and it was obvious to mr plod that both vehicles were well in excess of the speed limit..

    In this case he would usually state his observations on the penalty notice.

    Did he state that he estimated your speed or are you assuming he did?

    Was the officer in a moving car with a side mounted moving mode radar or was he sitting on the side of the road hanging it out the window?

    If he was on the side of the road, it may have been a laser and not a radar in which case there can be 50 cars in a convoy and he can still pick you up whether you are vehicle 5 or vehicle 50....

    They are not like a radar and can be used in circumstances where radars are useless...


    Radars are only designed to be used where there is only one vehicle in the radars operating area...

    Need a bit more info on this one...

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    For many years the courts have accepted police 'estimates' of speed... regardless of whether they had radar on another car or whatever...

    It's a big wide opening for police to simply rip it up you whenever they want. They give evidence that they have experience in estimating cars' speeds and so on, they are accepted as experts, you are knackered.

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    oh more than definetly, its more a curiosity thing...

    1st vehicle was a motor bike (50m ahead), then a car behind.
    Officer was in a car, side mounted radar coming towards.

    Officer stated that "its an estimated reading as you were right behind him"

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    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    oh more than definetly, its more a curiosity thing...

    1st vehicle was a motor bike (50m ahead), then a car behind.
    Officer was in a car, side mounted radar coming towards.

    Officer stated that "its an estimated reading as you were right behind him"
    Sheesh...

    I think I'd personally be looking for another fish to fry rather than giving you that spiel...maybe different policies....

    As Ray said, Police can 'estimate' speed, but this is usually in the circumstances of a vehicle flying past them (at an intersection for example) at a rate of speed so obviously in excess of the posted speed limit that Homer J could tell that the car was speeding...

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    It'd depend a lot on the speed you were said to be doing. No magistrate is going to uphold an estimated speed of 65 in a 60 zone but if you're all supposed to have be doing 140 in a 100 zone for example your in deep @%#*
    My theory is if you were doing the speed cop the penalty but if you don't agree you can always take it to court but you'll have to raise the doubt in the courts mind. Think of reasons to explain why the Police Officer may have been mistaken (don't ever say he / she was picking on you, no one will believe it) such as curves in road, similar vehicles around, sound of vehicle etc. Take photo's of the area, and some references. Worst case scenario you cop the original penalty. FYI. 1) the majority of radar units used in NSW are only considered accurate to + or - 3km/h so if its borderline ie.16ks over the limit it's worth fighting just to take it to the lower level. 2) Standard Police procedure when operating radar units is to set at 10 % + 3 ks ie. you get booked at 69km/h in a 60 zone but not 68. 3) Fixed speed cameras throughout NSW, operated by RTA are set at 10 % + 4 km/h, they only operate from the rear and they don't work on long vehicles such as semi's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumhead
    Fixed speed cameras throughout NSW, operated by RTA are set at 10 % + 4 km/h, they only operate from the rear and they don't work on long vehicles such as semi's.
    There are two speed cameras (one either way) at the bottom of Mount Ousley (Wollongong NSW) that take pictures of the front of the car!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumhead
    It'd depend a lot on the speed you were said to be doing. No magistrate is going to uphold an estimated speed of 65 in a 60 zone but if you're all supposed to have be doing 140 in a 100 zone for example your in deep @%#*
    My theory is if you were doing the speed cop the penalty but if you don't agree you can always take it to court but you'll have to raise the doubt in the courts mind. Think of reasons to explain why the Police Officer may have been mistaken (don't ever say he / she was picking on you, no one will believe it) such as curves in road, similar vehicles around, sound of vehicle etc. Take photo's of the area, and some references. Worst case scenario you cop the original penalty. FYI. 1) the majority of radar units used in NSW are only considered accurate to + or - 3km/h so if its borderline ie.16ks over the limit it's worth fighting just to take it to the lower level. 2) Standard Police procedure when operating radar units is to set at 10 % + 3 ks ie. you get booked at 69km/h in a 60 zone but not 68. 3) Fixed speed cameras throughout NSW, operated by RTA are set at 10 % + 4 km/h, they only operate from the rear and they don't work on long vehicles such as semi's.
    Not sure of your first two numbered points, but some speed cameras in NSW do work from a front on perspective, such as the two at the bottom of Mt Ousley in Wollongong. If you wish to speed between Gwynneville and Mt Ousley Rd you must be smiling so the camera can take your pic. There is one northbound and one southbound. There are detector stripes on the road too. I even know of someone who visits this board occassionally who was booked driving her dark green XM past the north bound one.

    There are other forward facing cameras around NSW too.
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    Default What a coincidence!

    Can we deduce anything from those last two posts?

    Especially seeing as they were posted at 11:11pm and 11:13pm...

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    Some fixed speed cameras do work with semis as they have a prox loop so it waits for the semi to be completely past before taking the photo.

    Originally they were meant to be completely online digital, in that the photo was to be transmitted almost immediately for processing using the number plate recognition software that the RTA developed & is now selling to the rest of the world. In reality though a plod has to retrieve a cartridge, often weeks later, making it possible to lose the evidence if the camera should spontaneously combust.

    Barry.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Hooray for spontaneous combustion...

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    sorry if I've misled anyone but I was assured less than a month ago that the privacy laws to allow front on photographs still hadn't passed through parliament. Number plate recognition is another matter as you don't even have to be speeding as you go past and nobody gets to see who's in the car with you. As for long vehicles I was also told they still hadn't sorted the technology and weren't allowed to fine at this stage. I've also figured out a great way to beat these cameras. DON'T SPEED

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    You mean "be sure to drive past the camera at a speed within the limit" of course...

    I have yet to find anyone who can properly define what it means to 'speed'.

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    I've been fined before for speeding when I was behind another vehicle, we were goin' 70km/h in a 60km/h zone... crazy warped speeds.

    Pulled both of us over (on another street) he thought we were racing.. (racing at 70m/h!!?!?!) questioned why ti took two cars to take one girl home when i didn't even know who the hell the other car was. then looked around my car to find anything else he could do me for.Found nothing then took down my license and car rego and sent me a $118 -1 point surprise 2 days later.

    Well at least he didn't defect me for having afetrmarket wipers, like they did to my mate - must be my lucky day
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumhead
    ...

    As for long vehicles I was also told they still hadn't sorted the technology and weren't allowed to fine at this stage.

    ...
    My source for this information is impeccable, cameras can and do photograph semis, but not all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Hooray for spontaneous combustion...
    There must be a design fault with these cameras as they often do spontaneously combust. The one at French's Forest in Sydney must be particularly bad as it has another couple of cameras watching it in case it goes up.

    Barry.

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    The Gestapo attitude still prevails, choiboi?

    As for the combustibility of these steel-encased cameras, we'll never see them get as bad as Holland, will we?

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    i was picked out of a bunch of cars just south of moree

    there would have been around 6-7 cars in a line and the one 2 cars in front of me had just overtaken the car in front of me when the police car going the other way through on it's pretty lights

    i thought to myself oh well he has been caught and yet i was the one that was pulled over

    i was doing just over 10 over the limit keeping in line with the others in the line

    why was i pulled over

    i put it down to having the only car that stood out from the crowd

    all the other cars were whitegoods and i had a red Mi-16

    if they were after a car that was speeding they would have picked the guy that was overtaking
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    NATE,
    just ask yourself one question.
    Was I exceeding the posted speed limit.
    If the answer is, NO, then fight it with all your might.
    If the answer is, well, YES, sort of but I was getting B%*#N at the time.
    (As recounted to me by a Police Officer I know, BTW he booked the passanger for not wearing a seat belt, as how could she do that while wearing one).

    A YES is a, "fair cop gov, you ave me banged to rights". Pay the fine and don't speed in the future.
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    Default Did you hear

    About the cop that was giving evidence in relation to estimated speed.

    Solicitor "You are accurate at estimating speed?"

    Cop "Yes I am?"

    with that the solicitor threw an eraser acroos the court room.

    Solicitor "Then, tell me how fast the eraser was travelling?"

    In NZ we gave estimates of vehicles travelling in the opposite direction to radar because this was policy at the time. The Radars could read in both directions and we estimated speed and then backed it up with the radar reading.

    This was done for extreme speeding not just a few kph over.

    I did win on estimated speed of 150kph in a 5o kph area with out radar back up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    You mean "be sure to drive past the camera at a speed within the limit" of course...

    I have yet to find anyone who can properly define what it means to 'speed'.
    I think Ray is trying to deduce that it was my wife who was booked. Well it was not. Our XM is silver, not dark green. I think coincidence in posting times was what has happened here, eh XMdriver
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    You have misunderstood me...

    And I note that still people are using the term 'to speed' in this thread. Does anyone have an explanation of exactly what that means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    You have misunderstood me...

    And I note that still people are using the term 'to speed' in this thread. Does anyone have an explanation of exactly what that means?

    with regards to the law speeding is anything more than the posted limit

    we had a whole thread about that not so long agao

    whether speed is good or bad it was established that if you are travelling above the posted limit you are deemed as speeding
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    You have misunderstood me...

    And I note that still people are using the term 'to speed' in this thread. Does anyone have an explanation of exactly what that means?
    And I quoted the wrong post

    I meant to quote the previous one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Can we deduce anything from those last two posts?

    Especially seeing as they were posted at 11:11pm and 11:13pm...
    D'Oh!
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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I work on the assumption that estimates are worth jack [email protected]#t.
    The second last time i was pulled over,The cop ,after failing to intimidate me by being too short, said 'How about i give you a ticket for 15 over'.(Far less than I was doing)
    I asked to see the radar read out confirming this, but was told the car had no radar.I went into smart ass mode and told him to write out a ticket for any speed he felt like , as he actually had no idea how fast I was going,and would be making it up anyway.Next thing he is ranting and raving about court and more court, and guess what.... no ticket.
    Also learned that night that you canot be breath tested at you principal place of abode.
    The last time I was pulled up, it was for faulty break lights. Break lights were fine, just hadn't felt the urge to use them. Cop threatened to give me a ticket for neg driving. for doing 50 kmh around the round about. I told him he'd have to do better than that, as my tyres did not break traction,or squeal.After a verbal attack on my attitiude and driving style ,I let the officer know that whatever he was going to charge me with would be contested in court.
    Guess what... no ticket.
    If I think the charge is bogus,I let the cop know it then and there.How many tickets written are bogus?????Imagine if everyone who got a bogus ticket took it to court. A cop would not get any work done.He'd be too busy in court.
    I wont accept an estimate of my speed.If I'm doing 100kph and cop says I'm doing 75kph, I dont consider that a nice cop is letting me off 25kph, but that the idiot hasn't actually got a lock on me and is making it up. calling his bluff the last few times certainly worked for me.
    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumhead
    sorry if I've misled anyone but I was assured less than a month ago that the privacy laws to allow front on photographs still hadn't passed through parliament.
    Apology accepted

    For the majority of fixed speed cameras, this is the case. There are a number of "trial" cameras about (not that many) that have been operating for 12 months now, which take pictures from either direction, as already mentioned.
    Regards,

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