Contesting a ticket
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Industrie's Avatar
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    Default Contesting a ticket

    Hey Guys, I'm looking at taking a speeding ticket to court & am wondering if anyone out there with knowledge/experience of the QLD system thinks that it's worth my while.

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    I got the ticket on the day I bought my 206. I transferred my personal plates from the 306 sedan I had. When the cop wrote out the ticket he didn't look at the car I was driving, but at his computer so all the details on the ticket are from the old car. Not the one I was driving. QLD transport mustn't have updated their system yet.

    The details basically say that I was driving a blue peugeot sedan with registration expiry date of 11/04. I was actually driving a black hatch with a rego sticker saying expiry was 07/05 (it happened a few months ago). Also he wrote my speed as being 65km/h then crossed it out (initialled) and wrote 75km/h. Happened in a 60 zone.

    I got the ticket late at night so I can understand the colour being wrong, but the other details show that he was so eager to give me the fine that he wasn't bothered about checking the details. My argument is that if he got all these obvious details wrong how can I be sure that he didn't stuff up on the speed as well. Especially as he had to cross it out & rewrite it.

    So I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on whether I should bother to take it further or will they just update the details I'll have to pay it anyway. Plus court costs.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Ethics

    On the one hand, prima faeces; you have a good case to argue with the coppers inattention to detail, could be argued by a good brief that he was not wholely paying attention and call all evidence into question, your honour.

    On the other hand, you were, presumedly, speeding; bang me up true to right gov it was me and I done it, pay the fine, do the points, it's all over.

    Lawyers cost money, more than the fine, one might presume, are you really tight for points?

    On the other hand, if you don't believe you weren't speeding.

    I don't know the outcome, it would be just terrible to think you would loose sleep if you made the wrong decision.

    cheers ed ge

  3. #3
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    Do your day in court!
    at worst its an extra $63 & a bit of a life experience...

    If he cant get the colour of a car correct then how capable is he to:
    Setup the instrument
    Use the instrument in the manner directed
    read the instrument

    The fact that he crossed it out, really drums into the fact he wasnt on the ball!!! It is ludicrous for him to have a guess & a 6 sure as hell dont look ANYTHING like a 7... so its not exactly a transcription error...

    Go for it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Do your day in court!
    at worst its an extra $63 & a bit of a life experience...

    If he cant get the colour of a car correct then how capable is he to:
    Setup the instrument
    Use the instrument in the manner directed
    read the instrument

    The fact that he crossed it out, really drums into the fact he wasnt on the ball!!! It is ludicrous for him to have a guess & a 6 sure as hell dont look ANYTHING like a 7... so its not exactly a transcription error...

    Go for it...
    Just a word from the dark side...

    As was quoted, it was night time so any dark colour can look similar..dark blue being mistaken for black at night is hardly going to discredit the officer(s)

    Secondly, he would write out the ticket using information gained from the radio check of the car. This is more acurate as many people don't change their rego label, otherwise every second car would be done for being unregistered... Unless he was a 'french car' guy he probably wouldn't know a pug 205 from a 206 etc...

    The identity of the car is only an issue if there was alot of traffic around and you're defence is that he has pulled over the wrong car...probably not the case being late at night...

    The main successful arguing point is identity. If you gave him your licence (photo ID) and the photo is of you then you are gonna be pretty much screwed.

    I don't want to put you off, but if you are going to run with that in court its no defence.

    Nothing of what you have mentioned constitues a possible lawful reason for speeding or a defence for the offence of speeding.

    As for the ticket error, trust me, they get screwed up all the time, the officer more than likely started to write the speed zone in the alleged speed box or something similar. I am not a traffic cop and don't write out tickets every day of the week and have made the same mistake myself.

    Again it's hardly going to discredit the officer if his reason for the error is as above...

    Quote Originally Posted by nate
    Do your day in court!
    at worst its an extra $63 & a bit of a life experience...
    Not true

    If you want (have) to have your day in court so be it but be prepared to lose the amount on the Penalty Notice + Costs + More if the magistrate feels like it (and some can be a bit narky at times)...remember the penalty notice amount is the MINIMUM amount a magistrate can increase the penalty, particuarly if you have any history....

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! DRD180's Avatar
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    at the end of the day, if you were speeding just pay the fine. and forget the incident even happened....from what you said there is no case as no one is perfect and we all sometimes put info in the wrong box.

    however the 65 - 75 is interesting as it is not the posted speed or the speed you were doing.

    have a fun day in court

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Industrie's Avatar
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    I don't actually know if I was speeding for sure. It was the first day in the car & as some people would know the speedo on the 206 is marked in odd numbers (10,30,50,70) and I definately hadn't got used to it by that stage. I mentioned to the cop that I had just bought the car that day and was not yet used to the speedo (he even took a look at the speedo to make sure I wasn't lying).

    The reason why I was thinking of disputing the ticket, and I have never before disputed a fine, was that if he's managed to get some very obvious details wrong on the ticket (does anybody here really believe a 206 looks like a sedan?) how can I take for granted that the speed he has listed is correct? The guy had enough prompts to double check the details he was putting on the ticket.

    The crossed out speed is definately not the the posted speed as it's not a 65km/h section (the cop even told me I was in a 60 zone, then said "I don't think you've hit the 50km/hr zone here... no, you haven't, it is 60 here"). To my mind there is enough doubt from all the mistakes that the speed listed may be incorrect also.

    By the way, does anyone know how those car mounted radars work? We were both heading towards each other, at a reasonable distance, and were each travelling downhill into a small gully. I always thought that both cars had to be on level ground for the reading to be accurate. Of course, technology has probably moved on since that was true.

    Oh, and at this point it doesn't look like I'll take it to court because they will probably just update the details, but I am still open to the possibility if someone with any QLD experience thinks I have a chance.
    Last edited by Industrie; 16th December 2004 at 11:06 PM.

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    A bit of advice. Pay the fine, and move on. It's not worth the stress.

    Stuey Cool


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Fellow Frogger! bigbadbyrnes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by industrie
    By the way, does anyone know how those car mounted radars work? We were both heading towards each other, at a reasonable distance, and were each travelling downhill into a small gully. I always thought that both cars had to be on level ground for the reading to be accurate. Of course, technology has probably moved on since that was true.
    yea, i would love to know more about how those things work and where they can. As Ziu would say, the first step towards winning a battle is to KNOW THY ENEMY - and i wanna know all i can.

    I got a good result from my day in court, but i had completly different circumstances, contesting a "more than 30 less than 45" over the limit and i was only able, by that stage, to dispute the demerit points and, thus, the suspension handed down.

    If you ask me, you wernt endagering anyone so why the hell are you being pinged like a criminal? but we've had this discussion before and everyone pretty much agreed to disagree. whatever, we know the truth.
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    Fellow Frogger! winnie's Avatar
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    If you were (or were possibly) speeding, pay the fine and move on. If you have trouble justifying that to yourself just think of all the times you have been speeding and weren't caught!

    I have very little faith in the car mounted radars, but about 6 years ago one nabbed me and was spot on, so the fine was dually paid for <15km over (if he had have caught me 5min earlier it would have been my licence)
    If all you have is a hammer, treat the world like a nail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Industrie
    "does anybody here really believe a 206 looks like a sedan?"
    On the registration system, cars are listed as either sedans, coupes or station wagons. There is no such thing as a hatchback body configuration for registration purposes.

    A sedan could be anything from a Mercedes-Benz 600 SEL to a Toyota echo hatchback...

  11. #11
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    I think the car mounted radars pick up their base speed signal from the road surface and are calibrated fairly accurately, so I'm not sure there's any reason to doubt them - unless you've heard otherwise?


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Industrie
    By the way, does anyone know how those car mounted radars work? We were both heading towards each other, at a reasonable distance, and were each travelling downhill into a small gully. I always thought that both cars had to be on level ground for the reading to be accurate.
    I would have thought that, if anything, the fact that your were both travelling down hill would tend to reduce the speed reading below your actual velocity. The same should be true of any lateral deviation. The comparative distance between your vehicle and the radar decreases more slowly as you get away from direct head on approach so the delay in return of any radar "bounce" is going to increase.

    Simply put, the reading might have been higher still if it wasn't for the dip.

    Cheers

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    rek
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    In my competely irrelevant opinion, it's simpler to just pay the ticket and be done with it. Yeah, they might have messed the form a bit, and I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could probably weasel out of it with strawmen and slippery-slope arguments, but is it worth the fuss and bother? When it comes down to it, you sped for a bit and were unlucky enough to get pinged for it this time around, c'est la vie.

    At least it was done by an actual police officer for a 'real' instance of speeding (75 in a 60 zone), and not something rediculous like doing 63 in a 60 zone and getting snapped by some Brackslotto camera hiding on a downhill stretch of road..

    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller
    prima faeces
    *teehee*
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    Fellow Frogger! Industrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rek
    In my competely irrelevant opinion, it's simpler to just pay the ticket and be done with it. Yeah, they might have messed the form a bit, and I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could probably weasel out of it with strawmen and slippery-slope arguments, but is it worth the fuss and bother? When it comes down to it, you sped for a bit and were unlucky enough to get pinged for it this time around, c'est la vie.

    At least it was done by an actual police officer for a 'real' instance of speeding (75 in a 60 zone), and not something rediculous like doing 63 in a 60 zone and getting snapped by some Brackslotto camera hiding on a downhill stretch of road..


    *teehee*
    I think I'll just pay the ticket... I just have personal issues with losing the points (I still had 11 of my 12 left).

    Funnily enough, when I was in Victoria last year in the 306 I sat above the speed limit everywhere and didn't get a ticket. Even on the highway to Geelong.

    I guess I shouldn't too upset, I've always had luck with speeding. Ever been driving your parents car at 130 in a 100 zone late at night, had this huge flash go off in your face, stressed for the next 20 minutes before remembering that your dad is even more flagrant in bending the rules then you are and that the front number plate is actually sliding around in the boot? Or had the flash go off in your face and then never received a ticket?

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    XTC
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    Take it on the chin ... as for contesting it .. if it's any conselation a friend of mine got off because the police wrote his car down as a blue Camira and it was really a green Barina .. Judge threw it out cause if they can't get something right like that ... what else could be bugus ?

    - xTc -
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Industrie
    I think I'll just pay the ticket... I just have personal issues with losing the points (I still had 11 of my 12 left).

    Funnily enough, when I was in Victoria last year in the 306 I sat above the speed limit everywhere and didn't get a ticket. Even on the highway to Geelong.

    I guess I shouldn't too upset, I've always had luck with speeding. Ever been driving your parents car at 130 in a 100 zone late at night, had this huge flash go off in your face, stressed for the next 20 minutes before remembering that your dad is even more flagrant in bending the rules then you are and that the front number plate is actually sliding around in the boot? Or had the flash go off in your face and then never received a ticket?
    If a flash went off in my face, there would be one VERY smashed camera on the side of the road, and one very beaten up camera operator next to it. It's bad enough we have to put up with these revenue raising devices, but when they start risking my families life by flashing in my eyes and blinding me while I"m in control of a 1.5ton vehicle moving at 60km/h that's about when I'd blow my top.

    If I was certain I wasn't speeding I would take it through every court in the land, that's me, I'd NEVER give in and wear it. Personally I think EVERY SINGLE speeding fine that's is issued for less than 10% over the limit (+ a 3km/h margin for speedo error) should be taken to court and refused to be payed under ***ANY*** circumstances. Within a couple of weeks the court system would grind to a halt and they would have to bin the cameras. It would cost more in court time than the government is currently making out of there revenue cameras.

    It used to be innocent until proven guilty, it is now "guitly until proven innocent without doubt, and even then your still guilty" when it comes to speeding fines.

    Have your day in court, I would. If all else fails at least you screw up the coppa's day :-) And yes I've been to court several times over minor matters like this (it p!sses my wife off quite a bit )

    And all you poeple that think I'm just aggrivated 'cos I've been flashed lots. The only speeding fine I have received was out in the desert when I was traveling wwwaaaayyyy above the posted speed limit. I was knowingly speeding so I was quite happy to pay the fine when someone pulls me over (and yes, it was an incredibaly well hidden marked police car).

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    Shane, I don't take shit lightly, so that's not my reason for the advice - to be the meek sheep. My point was that I've lived a life of getting aggro/stressed over things - not letting things go when I probably should, just like you seem to. You know the kind of thing; late at night, guy hassles (unknown to him) girl on train; girl upset, Stuey just stands up and uppercuts the guy and gets in massive fight, blood everywhere. I used to live this sort of life, again to the chagrin of my missus. Being two days before we were married... You should see the photos..! I couldn't get the video from Transperth...

    That is, where there's a blatant miscarriage of justice, go for it. But where there's a minor possibility that the cop has erred in some minor details, forget it. Pay the fine and walk away. I guarantee you'd feel better for it in a week as it'll be forgotten.

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    I agree with shane here......(ok I m different I just would not pay up. Full stop--till they come looking for me...by the time my name is completely different and now I m a Miss...anyway thats an altogether different story)....
    Seriously...I don t get this "cop it on the chin" attitude...Why the hell for...Shit, if everybody had that attitude....the officers would think themselves a law uponthemselves....Surely one has to be prepared to argue their side and NOT simply swallow the Revenue Pills they keep dishing out.....I think, the government, just like many private companies eg telstra etc etc....assume most people will COP IT...the government also relies on this attitude to make money...there isn t enough "rebel" in us...so the system stays the same.....if you can t / don t react to it...consider yourself but a mere sheep.....speeding itself is considered rebellious...so why the hell pay for the fine.....one can only be proud of one...not both....




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    cheers


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    Fellow Frogger! Industrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino
    I agree with shane here......(ok I m different I just would not pay up. Full stop--till they come looking for me...by the time my name is completely different and now I m a Miss...anyway thats an altogether different story)....
    Seriously...I don t get this "cop it on the chin" attitude...Why the hell for...Shit, if everybody had that attitude....the officers would think themselves a law uponthemselves....Surely one has to be prepared to argue their side and NOT simply swallow the Revenue Pills they keep dishing out.....I think, the government, just like many private companies eg telstra etc etc....assume most people will COP IT...the government also relies on this attitude to make money...there isn t enough "rebel" in us...so the system stays the same.....if you can t / don t react to it...consider yourself but a mere sheep.....speeding itself is considered rebellious...so why the hell pay for the fine.....one can only be proud of one...not both....
    cheers


    dino
    The way I look at it, if I tried to sue someone & my evidence contained as many inconsistencies as this ticket I'd be laughed out of court. Because it was the police, though, they will probably be allowed to update the details. What really f**ks me off is that there seems to be no need for police to actually do the job properly at the time. It can be glossed over later. The rules that apply to the general public are different to those which apply to government sponsored revenue raisers.

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    The main thing would be what is on the complaint (summons)as opposed to the ticket. In WA the prosecutor could ask for the summons to be amended and unlesss it was going to predudice you it would go ahead. If it may predudice you it would be set down for an other day to allow you to prepare your defence.

    At the end of the day the police will need to identify you in court which he will no doubt be able to do and while you may argue the points listed on the infringement notice it will come down to were you the driver and were you speeding.

    IMHO it could end up costing you more in time and trouble than it is worth.

    This is not legal advise but I have been a prosecutor.

    Graelin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Industrie
    The way I look at it, if I tried to sue someone & my evidence contained as many inconsistencies as this ticket I'd be laughed out of court. Because it was the police, though, they will probably be allowed to update the details. What really f**ks me off is that there seems to be no need for police to actually do the job properly at the time. It can be glossed over later. The rules that apply to the general public are different to those which apply to government sponsored revenue raisers.
    If he spelt the street name wrongly and crossed it out would THAT be an issue?

    He made a mistake (for whatever reason) and corrected it. Perhaps you are forgetting that you have made the first (and worst) mistake by exceeding the speed limit by nearly 20 kph (remember they knock off 3 k's). Build a bridge and get over it...

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    Default Looking at this another way

    Lets say a crim comes in your house assaults you, steals your property and in the myriad of paperwork completed a mistake is made by the police or the courts.

    SHOULD THIS PERSON WALK FREE?
    Graelin

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    Lets say a crim comes in your house assaults you, steals your property and in the myriad of paperwork completed a mistake is made by the police or the courts. SHOULD THIS PERSON WALK FREE? Graelin
    Morally NO .. but it happens, it's called getting off on a technicality. Just lucky the criminal didn't injure themselves breaking in and isn't suing you (yes that's happened too) - a friend was taken to court cause their dog bit a burglar ... IN the house he was burgling!!!! Sad sad world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Morally NO .. but it happens, it's called getting off on a technicality. Just lucky the criminal didn't injure themselves breaking in and isn't suing you (yes that's happened too) - a friend was taken to court cause their dog bit a burglar ... IN the house he was burgling!!!! Sad sad world.

    - xTc -
    It doesn't happen very often and it's usually as a result of a someway illegal arrest meaning that the evidence gained after that point is inadmissable...

    Things such as typos etc are not usually critical.

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    Often I have seen "Got off on a technicality" was an excuse for the investigating officer not covering his bases.

    Yes typos tell me who never makes one. But cops Have To Be Perfect when working long shifts while most of us are asleep and the lawyers are tucked up in bed safe and sound. Walk a mile in their shoes, how many would? I've done it but with level of critisism and lack of support have to ask why would I go back for more.

    People often do not have any idea of the complexities involved for example for a blood alcohol charge we had to be able to recall 83 points of evidence in sequence and accurately with no automatic recourse to notes taken.

    Yes i know there are always the bad ones that most good cops do not have any time for either.


    Graelin

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