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  1. #1
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Default P Platers Discussion Paper

    I apologise if this has already been posted somewhere, but the NSW Minister for Roads, Carl Scully, has finally released his discussion paper, aimed at reducing the incidence of young driver accidents/deaths.

    It's here: Young Drivers

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    It's an interesting read, and opinions are sought (and accepted) up until February 28, 2005

    Stop moaning and start submitting...

    Regards,

    Simon

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! jfn180's Avatar
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    They have to do something ASAP,so come on Mr Scully
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  3. #3
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfn180
    They have to do something ASAP,so come on Mr Scully
    Correction there WE have to do something ASAP. WE have to take suitable actions to ensure our opinions are heard.

    Mr Scully has given the public an opportunity to have their say on a range of issues, so like I am going to do, we should all have our say. Perhaps even Alan and others from interstate should also take the opportunity.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Of course...

    Even if we are 'interstate' we are users of NSW roads... and NSW P-platers come onto our roads.

    Ever consider how much use NSW roads get by other states' population? Every Thicktorian who wants to holiday in Queensland drives the length of NSW... every Queenslander who ever wants to go anywhere other than the NT has to go through or into NSW. South Australians going to Brisbane or points north will always go through NSW.

    Apart from that, NSW has a host of destinations, both recreational and business, that keeps so much traffic on the move in that state.

  5. #5
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    I'm going to be very blunt here,

    I think the main reason that the under 26 are under represented is purely natural vehicular attrition.

    There are some young people who simply do not have sufficient IQ/common sense to drive a motor vehicle.

    They do not correctly identify the risk/speed/alcohol/drug/accident equation.

    By 26 years of age, those who fall into the above category that have survived, have usually either A: scared themselves witless as a result of a potentially fatal scenario or B: been involved in a collision of monumental magnitudes and lived to tell the tail.

    The figures I would like to see, would be what percenatge of those under 26 collisions that were simply accidents (ie - poor judgement but no excessive speed or alcohol drugs etc)

    I'd imagine that the proportion would be much the same as over 26's.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You're probably right on three or four counts there...

    But I don't really think the huge crash scenario necessarily holds true. How many of these crashes are there, after all? And how many young drivers?

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    I guess it depends on what you consider to be an accident of huge magnitude...

    I consider that to be any high(ish) speed prang where the old "what if's" start playing on your mind...

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    these are the few things i disagree on, the rest holds fairly well with me

    Introduce a restriction that prohibits Provisional licence holders under 26 from driving high-powered and heavy vehicles. This could stipulate types of vehicles that novice drivers are banned from driving or be imposed on the basis of weight, power to weight or capacity to weight ratio limits. There would be appropriate exemptions, such as when a vehicle is the only one owned by a family or if a vehicle is owned by an employer.
    its not fast cars that kill people its inexpereinced idiots that drive them to fast.

    Introduce a night driving restriction between 10pm and 5am for a defined period for P 1 drivers under 26. There would be exemptions, such as for driving to and from work and study, and for medical emergencies
    how the heck are we supposed to have a night out, in areas where there is no/limited public transport

    Modify the demerit point structure of the Graduated Licensing Scheme to further encourage safer driving by young people.
    revenue raising scheme

    i think its fairly far when you look at it, and more expereince as a learner driver can only serve to help

  9. #9
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    these are the few things i disagree on, the rest holds fairly well with me
    Well, I hope you sent all your concerns to the appropriate feedback link on the Young Drivers page, instead of just subjecting us to them.

    This issue has been discussed at great length here already.
    Regards,

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    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206
    Well, I hope you sent all your concerns to the appropriate feedback link on the Young Drivers page, instead of just subjecting us to them.

    This issue has been discussed at great length here already.
    i know i'm just adding my comments seeing as this topic has been brought back up...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    i know i'm just adding my comments seeing as this topic has been brought back up...

    mate can you remove that signature pic as it may upset some people

    seeing as you are online now it would be perfect time
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    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    mate can you remove that signature pic as it may upset some people

    seeing as you are online now it would be perfect time
    I may just be having a stupid night, but is that speedo in km/h or mph? I know Pugs are slow, but THAT slow

    (oh, you mean some other pic that was there - sounds like a sensible request)
    Last edited by UFO; 1st December 2004 at 10:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    I may just be having a stupid night, but is that speedo in km/h or mph? I know Pugs are slow, but THAT slow
    its in both, bote the orange... i allways have fun with strangers that jump into my car though... telling them that my car only does 110k and that its also an automatic

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    I may just be having a stupid night, but is that speedo in km/h or mph? I know Pugs are slow, but THAT slow

    (oh, you mean some other pic that was there - sounds like a sensible request)

    i'll explain later
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    I fall under both categories. I am a P plater and 26 years old.

    I have taken defensive driving classes, only cause when I was 17. I got my bike license and never looked back...I now have a family and need a car.

    I rode bikes for a long time. And I have to say that if it wasn't for the required defensive riding courses you have to do to get your bike license. I would have not been here now.

    I can imagine that most people would be in an uproar if the Govt said, "you must now complete a weekends driver training before you can come and get your L's or P's" But I bet you all my money...even the fund I am saving up for a 306, that most of those people, if they do the course, will probably like it and enjoy it, and maybe even learn something.

    But all the govt says to this suggestion is that it will teach younger drivers how to skid and power slide, etc. And there will be more of us doing so, cause we think that we can now. Truth is, will it really make it worse, I don't think so...because it will not eliminate the problem in the first place.

    I don't think I am a great driver. I have only been doing so for a few years. I ride better then I drive, and I can say that I have confidence driving, I can read the traffic. I know from someones body language and the cars handling that they are going to change lanes. I put this down to my years on a bike and the education I had at the beginning doing those defensive driving courses.

    I don't stick up for all of us P platers. I am only saying what I think of myself. I can't say what others do in their cars. But if these young drivers are going to do burn outs and power slides, and other various stunts, then they are going to do it anyway, regardless of what laws are around. You might as well train them on how to do it properly, and when the chance comes where they do need to recover from a skid because you slammed on the brakes rathen the apply them properly (for those that drive a car without ABS).

    From my point of view, its just putting a bigger and bigger band-aid on an already open wound. And this needs stitches, not a band-aid.

    My suggestion up top is not the answer. One thing I do agree with, that should be made a law, is reducing the cars power/weight ratio for learners and provisional license holders. Or just like manual and automatic transmission tests. You should be tested in a car that has certain power or sized engine, then you are allowed to drive any car up to that size around, or that power output.

    The Govt has sucessfully introduced this to learners of bikes, and its worked. They even increased the size to 650cc, but only some models that have low Horsepower output...but the Govt missed a very important point. Torque. This can get some people into more trouble.

    I suppose at the end of the day, there are too many variables.

    This is just all my opinion. So..who knows.

    I just know that I am cautious and drive responsibly, because I am responsible for others besides myself...other passengers as well as other motorists and pedestrians.

    That just made me think of another point. P platers that might have jobs, or worst still, a family that they need to drive around. What will they do?

    Thanks for reading.
    pips
    Last edited by pips; 7th December 2004 at 07:15 PM.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    That's the kind of stuff that ticks me off.

    Like having ARD say that the rear tail/brake lights on a Nissan Patrol must be in the rear bumper, rather then the usual sides of the rear of the body.

    Or years ago when Ducati released the 916. Awsome motorcycle that revolutionised the industry. With sexy slim line head lights. The ARD interviened and said the lights were too thin. Aussie importers having to retrofit the square (1970/80's) style headline. Ruining the look of a once sexy bike....the funny part is. Now, they have changed their mind, and these days its accepted in its original form.

    I bet all those people that bought the original ones are spewing.

    I know this is slightly off the topic, but someone relevant to the illustration of how idiots run our lives. You are free to do as we tell you.

    pips

  17. #17
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    Default my conspiratorial thoughts - is it just me?

    The current issues of young drivers across NSW and Australia is one that has been approached in the wrong way since the introduction of Green P-Plates. We can thank the media for their emotive approach to the "carnage" of accidents, displayed in all reports today which label the young driver at fault. Without knowing any exact figures, we can only estimate that there is a significant amount of young drivers doing well on the road that are obeying the laws but are immediately categorised as wrong-doing unremorseful maniacs because of the recurring incidents.

    The sudden influx of accidents across the country at the fault of young drivers is a direct reaction to the judgment of skills placed on young drivers before they even do wrong.

    Young drivers are tested with skills to gain their driving license, plagued by ridiculous fees from the RTA for bookings, required materials, licensing and testing, monitored with only 4 points, and are instantly a suspect for police should they be driving after night. These are issues that aren't faced by the rest of Australian drivers. I believe that this prejudice young drivers face, to simply drive an automobile, is the reason that there is presently an issue. Young drivers are bullied from the start by the RTA and then later the Police. L and P Plate drivers are leeched from their limited money for a civil liberty in modern times, and are abused by the "real people" across the country from both their vehicle and their armchairs.

    The current proposed "solutions" to this growing problem of road accidents involving a longer provisional period and further extensive driver training are ridiculous. These will only frustrate the currently bullied young drivers and I predict that we will see further accidents as a result.

    Should the further training be imposed, every single driver in the country should be tested in exactly the same way. To compliment this, the allocation of the same amount of points should be handed to Provisional license holders as the average working class individual. Alas, it is these "real people" who feel they rely on their license more than the reckless youth; ironically winding down at the end of the day to watch the news rip the reputation of young drivers (who are people too) to shreds.

    I believe that a lot of incidents involving young drivers are a result of mental issues and perhaps misjudgment. Has anyone bothered to ask why the youth speed, or take corners recklessly, or why they screech their tyres? I can't answer on behalf of young Australian drivers. I believe it is partly result of the bullying and prejudice that provisional drivers face.

    If the news presenters of today were to stand back and speak properly instead of with their eyebrows up, mid-sentence pauses, emotive language, and extensive over exaggeration, perhaps more of the "people who count" (i.e.: hardworking taxpaying Australians[which i say with my hand on my heart]) would agree with me. This is presently not happening, and the both the Coalition and the Opposition are foreseeing probable changes, or "solutions".

    It is worth a try to look at the problem from a fresh perspective. We may even need to borrow some of that tax money to fun an independent commission into the whole issue. But further bullying of young drivers will not solve this long term issue.

  18. #18
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    Well I've stated in no uncertain terms what you guys have to do to get results; remove fingers and start kicking some political coight but do it in a positive manner.
    As Craig says, I have done my share. probably more than it, in submissions to Governments and I have been brutally frank with Politicians and senior public servants, research directors and the like and I have made headway.
    Nothing comes easy and these characters like Scully will have every overseas "expert" trying to ram down his throat all the failed ideas that they originally thought of that didn't work over there in the hope they might here.
    You guys sit on you big fat arses and complain on these forums and they have not got one clue what your thoughts are; be heard, get on the feedback links and say your piece. Goes without saying that if you come across as a caparseabout, gum chewing, nose picking doof doof rice boy with an attitude problem, your submission will have the impact of a piss in the ocean.
    It needs to be factual, to the point and above all else, address the criteria as set out in teh discussion paper.

    Here are the ones from the Queensland Inquiry; as they operate on a MSMD principle most Government departments (Monkey See - Monkey Do) it is advantageous if a line is followed that either makes them think or agrees with their general line of thought.

    http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/com...AFELICREST.htm

    Mine is number 29 and remember was done over a year ago, so you look at what is presently being discussed and see for yourselves you can make an impression. I did.

    Queensland is still playing around the edges and I still keep making them play it honestly; whenever they turn around, I'm there. Somebody asked a few months back why there was no special licence testing provisions or licence class for 4WDs. A "spokesman for the Minister" responded that nobody had ever suggested there needed to be one. Look at my submission; I contacted them & there was a retraction.
    Of late the new Chairman of Travelsafe appeared on TV with a guy who has invented a simulator for use in schools; has some merit but to my way of thinking, his interst in Road Safety is limited by how many $$$$$$s he can make. I had already sent the info to the Politician involved 9 months earlier and he hadn't responded, and here was this guy spruiking almost word perfect much of my submission. I gave Mr Chaiman both barrells and was contacted by his secretary yesterday inviting me to a personal meeting in January and profusely apologising. I have now taken my submission to a higher level. I have volunteered to take it around the State for no fee, just reimbursement of my expanses to sell this to car clubs, schools and anyone interested if the Politicians feel the ideas are a bit radical to be sold politically. This has put the heat back on them to now make a positive step.
    We'll see if they pass the test. The point is, that most who send in submissions are involved in the Driving School business hence their credibility is tarnished as it always revolves around the driving school industry and how they can make more money from their businesses. I don't have that baggage to carry and neither do you guys if you show some initiative and follow suit.

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  19. #19
    UFO
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    You may recall that I said I sent an email to my State Rep a few weeks ago - before the NSW Inquiry was announced but while the night time p plate driving argument was raging.

    I received a letter back from my State Rep soonish after and a few weeks ago a letter from Carl Scully. Late last week I also received another letter from the Minister's Office with a copy of the discussion paper.

    I had already printed my copy of the paper, but am certainly working on a considered and structured response. Deal with facts is the key; not emotions.

    Personally I am pretty fed up with the way the media are carping on lately re road deaths. Well will they get it through their fat heads that people will die on the roads?

    On Sunday they had some memorial service in Melbourne to commemorate those killed in traffic incidents. The media puppet stated that we had an increasing road death tolll. Funny that statistics do not back up the statement.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206
    I apologise if this has already been posted somewhere, but the NSW Minister for Roads, Carl Scully, has finally released his discussion paper, aimed at reducing the incidence of young driver accidents/deaths.

    It's here: Young Drivers

    It's an interesting read, and opinions are sought (and accepted) up until February 28, 2005

    Stop moaning and start submitting...

    oooohhhh but its more fun to moan and groan and complaine about the system when safely behind the keyboard..........back to reading now

  21. #21
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    Just thought I'd throw my two bobs worth in and see how many people I can piss off. All these young people wingeing about how they're picked on etc. When I got my license 20 + years ago you didn't get 4 points you got 0 and if you got booked for anything there went your license. The big difference was the coppers had a bit of leeway and could give you a kick up the arse or just take your car keys for a while if you got too stupid. Nowdays they'd end up in court getting sued by some young smartarse and lose their job.
    We're into double figures on the FNC of NSW with teenage deaths in the last 12 months and I'm sick of going to funerals and I'm sick of listening to all the excuses in court. People can blame the roads or the weather or whatever but it comes down to obeying the road rules and driving to the conditions. And thats for young and old (this is where young drivers have trouble through lack of experience). It's just the young that seem to resist this more. We don't see too many 30 + drivers in court for doing 140 kph in a 100 zone or 100 + in a 60 zone but we get a suprising number of young ones. And now to the greatest change I've noticed on the road in the last 10 or so years. I have been commuting on motor cycles since 17 and there have always been the revheads, the old crusties off to bowls, the volvo (+ Citroen) drivers oblivious to all others and the taxi drivers who don't know/care about the road rules, but has anyone noticed how many young very aggressive female drivers, usually in some semi sporty jap car, there are out there these days. These days if I'm on the Ducati and there's someone tailgating me it usually some dopey young shiela who's trying to get somewhere fast. These young, inexperienced drivers scare me (which usually leads to me scaring them ) because they have no idea what they're doing is dangerous. It's not fair to expect them to pay for advanced driver training, and probably useless too unless they do all the emergency stuff on a regular basis. Maybe something like the traffic offenders program they run in court but ongoing over a year or 2 starting at school will create the right mindset. I just hope they find an answer before my 2 learn to drive.

  22. #22
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Scrumhead,

    You obviously didn't read my submission (after all it is 11 pages long) but it's got amongst it's features, an emphasis on incentive rather than punitive measures that have been tried and don't work.
    My idea is that they get rewarded for atttempting to improve their skills and for good driving all of which will mean they get more freedoms but they will be back on their provisional licence so quick if they play up it's not funny. If they steal a car, joy ride or do anything stupidly dangerous, they can put their chances of an open licence back 5 years real quick and will incur an automatic licence loss for 2 years. It also means that if they persist with bad driving habits, they can still be on a P licence when they're 90.
    I don't like and they can't justify making P drivers targets for lazy coppers trying to get their quota; they should be judged on their merits rather than have a target in the form of a "P" plate attached to the car. My argument on this is that we can't legislate for common sense and some inexperienced whalloper with a book of blank tickets and a sargeant waiting at the station to scream him out for not fulfilling his quota will hit "soft" targets and p licence drivers are soft targets. This is the problem with what I constantly refer to as "Treasury based Road Safety"; not a term that endears me to their hearts. This does nothing for Road safety or for Police P/R and builds an unnecessary animosity and lack of respect. I think if they made some of these young bludgers masters of their own destiny by bringing in an incentive system and made them a smaller target for the coppers to prey on, we'd all be a lot better off. ASfter all, what incentive is there to do the right thing if you're going to get booked for any minor offence anyway?

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm
    ...
    I was told there is a $900 penalty and 4 demerit points for driving with no lights which would've cost me my license but since i said i havent been in trouble with them before they gave me a warning
    I think this is a rather large penalty to pay for a simple mistake when running a red light is just $300 and 3 points.
    Definitely made the stomach churn
    I suspect he was simply trying to frighten you into remembering them in future, Malcolm.

    In Victoria, at least, driving without your lights on at night is a 1 point offence. I suspect its the same nationally these days - see http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf...20Offences.pdf

    (Mind you, he/she could always add in the charge of careless driving or driving with an improperly displayed number plate to bring it up to the full 4 I guess.)
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    what realy annoys me about this is that our road toll compared to other states is realy quite acceptable..

    According to the World Health Organisation's World Report of Traffic Injury Prevention,(http://www.who.int/entity/world-heal...ary_en_rev.pdf)

    ..we have somthing like the worlds 3rd lowest road toll.. but now we have ppl winging and dancing and thinking about intorducing all sorts of silly ideas..

    you can never achieve a 0 road toll.. statistics will forbit it.


    Realy if above anything i think we need to keep this debate way in perspective and well stop singing and dancing about it..

    Im sure many would agree there are more pressing issues in this country then Road Fatalities..

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  25. #25
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    Any incident ,being it road related or anything else has a cause, 9 times out of ten it is human related, of which brings me to the point, that the road toll is 100% human related and caused, so it is about time this carnage was eliminated and what better place to start than with inexperiance, raise the p-plate term to expire to 5yrs after gaining full licence recognition , & automatic licence disqualification for life [your life] for conviction of any sort of drink driving offence. Get alcohol of any public roads / footpaths. It is really about time no mercy was shown on this subject, take NO prisoners with careless drivers.... TAKE RESPONSLITY FOR ALL YOUR ACTIONS , & DO NOT HIDE AND RUN FOR COVER OF THE LAW LIKE MOST DO..............

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