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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    Default Just need a clarification

    I was watching a doco last night on the 40 years of Mini, and they were saying that it was the first production vehicle having a east-west engine layout and Front wheel drive. Is this true?? All along I had thought that Citroen was the first ppl to use FWD in cars.

    Cheers
    Billy

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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yep,

    I think that is right. Citroen has been using FWD since the 30's, however it wasn't to the CX in the '70s that they used an East/West engine layout as well as FWD.

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    Darn!! If I was right....I would write a very stern letter to the documentary ppl and tell them they got it wrong and fly the high in the air!!

    Cheers
    Billy
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  4. #4
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    They're right, but CitroŽn weren't the first FWD of any kind, either.

    If you want to go way back, Dr Porsche had a low production electric FWD car, but being practical and talking only of production cars in reasonable numbers, the Cord L-29 was earlier than CitroŽn (late 20's - 1929?).

    Stuey


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  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Millers were running FWD at Indianapolis in that era too... so there was a lot of FWD thinking going on at the time.

    As for the 'East-west engine FWD' first, well, BMC had to shell out a lot of money to Peugeot for infringing on their copyrights. Though the 204 didn't go into production until years later, apparently the patents were in before Issigonis got his design up and running. I think that having the gearbox under the engine was a part of the issue.

    My understanding is that it was settled out of court.

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    Ray, I'm not intimately familiar with the 204 engine/gearbox, but part of Issigonis' claim to fame was the 'gearbox in the sump and common oil' layout which enabled the unit to remain shorter. For my knowledge - is this the same in the 204? (I doubt it, because this was one of the Mini's achilles heels with older oils/filtration, which was less a problem as oils developed).

    Stuey


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  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    204.304 and 305 enjoyed this method of construction...

    And also the 104, I think.

    I have a gearbox if you'd like to check it out.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    So Ray, you are saying Pugs had the first patents for East-west engine layout for FWD, but BMC beat it by getting into production first.

    I am also wondering whether that the earlier FWD vehicles had a north-south engine layout??

    Cheers
    Billy
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  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BW205
    So Ray, you are saying Pugs had the first patents for East-west engine layout for FWD, but BMC beat it by getting into production first.

    I am also wondering whether that the earlier FWD vehicles had a north-south engine layout??

    Cheers
    Billy

    i am sure that peugeot only ever had east west engines in any of their FWD cars

    the 204 engine i believe was used in a panhard for a le mans race but it never finished

    it also used a 5spd box

    i remember reading about it somewhere

    maybe someone knows more about it

    i do remember it was blue though

    might be time for a google i think
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  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Panhards had their own engines, from memory (another marque that should be represented here... if only we had some owners)... surely they went Renault if not their own, as they were always tiny engines competing for the Index of Efficiency prizes.

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Panhards had their own engines, from memory (another marque that should be represented here... if only we had some owners)... surely they went Renault if not their own, as they were always tiny engines competing for the Index of Efficiency prizes.

    as promised a google search confirmed my memory of the article i read ages ago

    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame...hp&carnum=1337

    Charles Deutsch and Rene Bonnet built their first special in 1939 and started building small lightweight but very innovative sporstcars in the 1950s. Their cars were quite a big success but the cars never came to their full potential as the duo split in 1961. In 1963 Charles Deutsch designed a race car for Panhard, dubbed CD, for sportscar races like the infamous LeMans 24 Hours.

    The car featured here is the final incarnation of the CD as raced in the 1967 LeMans 24 hours. The CD 66 C was powered by a Peugeot 204 engine modified by Moteur Moderne. The bodywork was extremely efficient (a drag coefficient of only 0.13 cd) allowing for top speeds of 250 km/h with only 108 bhp on tap. Unfortunately neither of the two cars made it past the twelve hour mark in the 1967 LeMans race. It was the last LeMans entry for Panhard. WM


    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That's very interesting... that date is before the 204 hit the market, I think.

  13. #13
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    the 204 hit the market in the spring of 1965 which from what i can gather makes that in france a 1966 release
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So that would make this photo a demonstration on their release...

    [img]www.austarmetro.com.au/~raybell/204sand18.jpg[/img]

    They came out 23rd April, 1965, by the way.
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 21st November 2004 at 11:30 AM.

  15. #15
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i made a mistake above

    it is August (summer) in france that starts the new model year not spring so that would still make the car a 1965 release
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    And why isn't my picture working?

    Have the image codes been turned off somewhere?

  17. #17
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    Billy, the earlier FWD's DID have a north south arrangement. That was what I meant by 'of any kind'. The reason they didn't worry was that, logically, the Yanks didn't have to worry about length - the Cord (and the Cit too) had that long bonnet that could accomodate a north south layout.

    The Miller race car did, too, set up with the 'box in front of the motor from memory, and the seat far back. Might be wrong.

    Stuey


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  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, the Millers were set up that way...

    All Citroens up until the CX were that way too. Cars like the Lloyds and the Hansas... all of them.

    And Peugeot's front wheel drive stuff was all norfh-south before the 204.

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell

    And Peugeot's front wheel drive stuff was all norfh-south before the 204.

    as far as i know the 204 was the first FWD car for peugeot
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think it was too...

    But their other FWD stuff was all north-south.

    Anyway, I've given up on that url for the pic... gone to imageshack...


  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I think it was too...

    But their other FWD stuff was all north-south.

    what FWD peugeots were north/south ?

    204 east/west
    304 east/west
    205 east/west
    206 east/west
    306 " "
    307 " "
    405 " "
    406 " "
    407 " "
    605 " "
    607 " "
    104 " "

    as far as i know all FWD pugs were east/west
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    J7... J9... that sort of thing...

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    J7... J9... that sort of thing...

    isn't the boxer a modern version of the j7/j9 ?

    if so then that is east/west

    even if the J7/J9 were north/south it still doesn't make all their other stuff in this configuration as all the cars i stated were/are east/west
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I never said anything about cars... before you came in to question this I said 'stuff'... in fact, I agreed that the cars were all east-west as far as I know.

    Sometimes you have to read what's written.

    And I can assure you (and you only need look in your 203 workshop manual for confirmation!) that the J7s and J9s were north (norfh?)-south.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    IAnd I can assure you (and you only need look in your 203 workshop manual for confirmation!) that the J7s and J9s were north (norfh?)-south.
    Norf? Wot you mean Norf? You lookin' for a slap in the boat, Guv'nor?


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