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Thread: Road rage

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Yesterday morning as I was quietly driving to Bunnings to get some glue minding my own damn business...

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    I turn right around a round-about, look in my rear view to see a work ute right on my ass, then he trys to overtake me on the left. I got the shits & swerved left to block him. didn't seem to like that one bit, started giving my the one finger salute & urging me to pull over(there we're four people in the ute).. next stop they pull up beside me & one of them gets out of the ute.
    starts running towards my car, he was a big kiwi so I did the only sane thing that came to mind & got the hell outa there very swiftly, via a 180 in reverse. it's was a close call.

    what would you have done in that situation?
    & what do you think he would have done once he reached my window.
    a) start kicking in my panels
    b) start punching me through the window
    c) drag me outa the car & start boot bashing me with his other three mates joining in.

    I didn't get his number plate, I admit I shouldn't have provoked them by swerving, but overtaking on the left on a single lane road is just not on in my books.
    Last edited by Jason20; 25th October 2004 at 01:57 PM.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    he would have done (a) and (b)

    also though... people dont jsut get angry i find... were you driving abit slow? or not indicating or doing anything that could piss him off?

    although with 4 in their car the slighest driver error would have been enough reason for him to show off infront of his mates.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    they we're looking for trouble, I was driving normal, not slow, used my blinker, having P plates attracts this sorta thing I think, I really need to get off them, i've been due since june.. The swerve left I did when he hinted at overtaking me on the left set them off.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    oh yeah, then after I got the glue from bunnings, my car died & smoke started coming out of the bonnet, stopped right at the exit of the carpark blocking cars exiting. people kindly honked at me even though my hazards we're on & there was noway i could move the car out of the way, but all they had to do was sneak past me & go through the entry instead of the exit.

    problem with my car was a loose wire that shorted out on the inlet manifold. lucky the car didnt set itself on fire. I trimmed the wire so it wasnt touching any metal bits & then the car started first kick.


    so I nearly got bashed & burned to death within 20 minutes of yesterday. ahhh, i must have 9 lives.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

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    yeah run like hell... you dont need that sorta thing!
    similar thing happened to a guy in a WRX... i think it was the fact that i was in my Hyundai at the time that really peeved him!

    Get the plates & run like hell!
    then when you're far enuf, toot & wave, perhaps blow a kiss!

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    I reckon they could've done any one or combination of a, b, and c. I also don't agree that you can generalise and say people don't get angry for no reason. They might think they have reason..doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid one.

    I've had a pretty bad personal experience a couple years back. Was driving back from the cinemas when some idiot ran out in front of me so I had to hit the brakes. The car behind ran into the back of me but there was only a small tap. I got out to check the damage, exchange details etc when another car pulled up which was full of his mates. Both cars were P-platers, the one that ran into me was an old torana, the other a vl commodore full of his mates. There was hardly any damage to either my car (a corolla at the time) and his car, yet the driver and his 4 mates didn't need much of a reason to try and kill me. It's some miracle that I'm actually here retelling the story, albeit after major cranio-facial surgery.

    Anyway, as for your incident, I think that was pretty silly swerving in front of that ute, especially when you're alone and he's got a car load of big guys. But once it happened, getting out of there quickly was definitely the smartest thing you did. There're some really crazy psychos out there.
    Take the long way home....

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    I find a lazy 45kg Rottie/Ridgeback cross and an excitable cattle dog laying happily in the back seat of my car will prevent any of this stuff.

    As a bonus you can park your car anywhere ... Even leave the keys in the ignition if you feel the urge The cars sure to be there when you return.

    Only one thing to say about road rage 'AVOID', do NOT get involved. Wind up the windows & lock the doors. A few dents in the car is nothing (now if only I could follow my own advice...).

    BTW: If it makes you safer invest in a nice steering lock and leave it in easy reach on the back floor (after all we don't want your car getting stolen do we ).

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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    yet the driver and his 4 mates didn't need much of a reason to try and kill me. It's some miracle that I'm actually here retelling the story, albeit after major cranio-facial surgery.
    sorry to hear that man, it's a real f**ked up world out there... it's hard to aviod trouble when it comes looking for you. did you call the police & sort them out???

    Anyway, as for your incident, I think that was pretty silly swerving in front of that ute, especially when you're alone and he's got a car load of big guys. But once it happened, getting out of there quickly was definitely the smartest thing you did. There're some really crazy psychos out there.
    Yeah, I kinda really wish I hadn't, I was in a bit of a shitty mood at the time & it was one of those spur of the moment things...
    I'm lucky they pulled up beside me & not behind me as I would have been blocked in/screwed. only one got out & he looked like a nutter.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DoubleChevron]Hmm,
    I find a lazy 45kg Rottie/Ridgeback cross and an excitable cattle dog laying happily in the back seat of my car will prevent any of this stuff.
    hahaha, yeah I have a staffy, but he's more likely to get out & start humping legs than put up a fight.

    BTW: If it makes you safer invest in a nice steering lock and leave it in easy reach on the back floor (after all we don't want your car getting stolen do we ).
    Spot on! I never leave home without my wog basher, a.k.a. clublock
    I wanna get a new renault megane, it has storage compartments under your feet, big enough to pack a 9 & some clips. that'll sort em out.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jastanis
    .....Anyway, as for your incident, I think that was pretty silly swerving in front of that ute, especially when you're alone and he's got a car load of big guys. But once it happened, getting out of there quickly was definitely the smartest thing you did. There're some really crazy psychos out there.
    As I've said many times on this forum, and this has especially related to dealing with tailgaters, Leave Them Be!

    Let them fly past on the left... it's okay, they certainly won't get in your way as they're going faster than you.

    Just drive your own course and look out for what you're doing. If someone does the wrong thing, that's up to them. If you have to avoid them, well you do that, but otherwise let them do as they may.

    There is nothing you can do that will make it better, but what you do may well make it worse.

    What if they had become incited and tried to run you off the road? It happens... especially with Holden one tonners...

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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    I know, it's good advice...
    9 outa 10 times i usually do, but as I was in a bad mood I just lost a bit of self control & paid the price.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason20
    Yesterday morning as I was quietly driving to Bunnings to get some glue minding my own damn business...

    I turn right around a round-about, look in my rear view to see a work ute right on my ass, then he trys to overtake me on the left. I got the shits & swerved left to block him. didn't seem to like that one bit, started giving my the one finger salute & urging me to pull over(there we're four people in the ute).. next stop they pull up beside me & one of them gets out of the ute.
    starts running towards my car, he was a big kiwi so I did the only sane thing that came to mind & got the hell outa there very swiftly, via a 180 in reverse. it's was a close call.

    what would you have done in that situation?
    & what do you think he would have done once he reached my window.
    a) start kicking in my panels
    b) start punching me through the window
    c) drag me outa the car & start boot bashing me with his other three mates joining in.

    I didn't get his number plate, I admit I shouldn't have provoked them by swerving, but overtaking on the left on a single lane road is just not on in my books.
    Not a nice experience is it. I think what you did was not a bad move. Why wait around to see what they would do.
    I had a scary experience a few years back in my 205 Gti when I pulled out to pass a truck (after indicating) on a dual lane highway when the loser behind me in a bommodore had the same idea. He showed his appreciation in the usual manner so I left him behind (probably not a good idea in hindsight). After dropping back to the legal limit he soon caught me and pulling along side he started to move across onto my lane !!! I moved over onto the verge as I looked to my right. There he was, sitting between the front seats with a tennis racket waving out the passenger side window!!!!!! I hit the brakes at this stage & he went ahead but slowed down so much that I had to passed him. I turned off the highway & everywhere I went he followed. Ended up loosing him through a shopping centre carpark.
    About a fortnight later the same guy pulled up next to me at traffic lights outside my workplace carpark. I turned into the carpark & he when straight on but did a u-turn. I had got into my work building when he pulled up and just sat there looking at my car for about 5mins. I went to the cops & they said that they would have a talk to him. The obsessed morons that are on the roads !!!
    We have a good laugh about it now though!

    Will

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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    There he was, sitting between the front seats with a tennis racket waving out the passenger side window!!!!!!
    maybe he just wanted to have a round of tennis with you? it's not a nice feeling being threatened is it, I've been mugged on the train coming home from tafe twice & was threatened to be stabbed. My watch & all my money we're taken.. I was only 15 back then.

    I'm kinda scared i'll have another run in with these guys in the ute, it's hard having an uncommon car.. same with you, if you were in a toyota camry i'm sure he wouldn't have looked twice at you two weeks after...

    I kinda felt like a pussy running from them, but I obviously stood no chance, I'm just happy to have come out unmarked.
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yep,

    if you have a car that stands out, and it comes to the crunch. AIM FOR THEM, and go for it, if there dumb enough to get out of the car that's there problem. They'll right your off as a pshyco that tried to kill them by running them down and won't hastle you anymore

    If I have a wife 'n' kid in the car I wouldn't hesitate to run some @sshole(s) down that's threatening them. The police can sort it out later. MUCH better them than me.

    I don't get this "lets go and bash someone driving a 1.5ton car thing" at all. I just think "splat ". Seriously don't put yourself in danger by getting out of the car.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    sorry to say it Jason, and it doesnt excuse the ******s who tried to bash you, but you brought it on yourself. Yes there are f**kwit drivers out there, and the sooner you get used to it the better - just bloody ignore them!! Just drive normally at the speed limit, dont make any sudden moves and if they are really bugging you, just pull over and let them go. Its just not worth the hassle. I dont even bother honking my horn these days.

    Its only when they come REALLY close to killing me that I ever say anything. I did actully comment to an idiot in a new XR6 who did a huge burnout u turn when he pulled up next to at the next lights, jokingly saying I was glad I didnt have to pay for his tyres He got mega agro straight up (it was just a joke )and I was ready to let it go and say whatever when I noticed his baby in its baby capsule on the backseat - THAT annoyed me and I told him so. Then he got really agro and his mate in the passenger seat just started going on saying keep looking ahead, not one more word, I'll bash ya up etc etc, and then starting bagging my car (the trusty R25) etc etc. I just let him go on - it seemed to make him happy and not feel like the needle dick he was. Plenty of morons out there mate - get used to it
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    I know what it feels like Jason20, well, a little worse really.

    I supposedly cut someone off when I merged into the right lane to get off in town (Auckland) in January in my 504 Ti. Now I'll admit it was a slightly brisk change, but I indicated and really it wasn't that bigger deal. I mean it's the busiest section of the motorway in Auckland, lots of traffic.

    Anyway, when we got off in the city he pulled up beside me and shouted something, as we went further down the road he pulled in front of me and stopped, forcing me to stop.

    He got out (a rather large Polynesian male) and immediately I went into reverse to get out of there but being a busy one way street I couldn't. He came up to the window accusing me of cutting him off then proceeded to punch straight through my drivers window and into my face :/.

    Several punches later he was dragged off by his friends. At this point there is glass all throughout the front of the car and the dash as well as my blood on the dash and windscreen. Whilst this had happened my foot slipped off the brakes and rolled into his girlfriends Civic and took the whole back bumper off, and left only scratches on my 504.

    Anyway, they left but I got their number plate and the Police were called by people an apartment above, the guy actually came back shortly after and admitted to it. He was charged with assault and wilful damage by the police, and I later received $250 from him for the broken window.

    Now I really didn't think I had 'cut him off', I guess he couldn't handle a quick lane change in peak Auckland traffic. Even if I had cut him off extremely that dosn't justify assaulting someone.

    It kind of makes you a bit more paranoid and alert in traffic, nowdays I don't hesistate to drive off quickly if I think a driver is going to do something to my car in traffic. I suspect the guy had been smoking p (methamphetmine) at the time which is a bit of a problem now in New Zealand. It was quite funnily, apparently he was very apologetic and regretful when talking to the Police.

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    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason20
    sorry to hear that man, it's a real f**ked up world out there... it's hard to aviod trouble when it comes looking for you. did you call the police & sort them out???
    Oh the cops were called alright. My gf was also in the car and cluey girl that she is, called the police the instant she saw the second car pull up. Not that it helped really. The cops took 15 mins to arrive even though the local police station was 2km down the road I kid you not. My gf even gave them our exact location and told them we were just up the road from the station. During the whole case etc only one policewoman did her job well and acted professionally. The rest were incompetent morons whose professionally training must surely have stopped at 'How to hold a radar gun'. The driver of the other car was caught red-handed, though the two officers who actually arrived on the scene let him go immediately after taking a statement because as they quoted 'we're highway patrol, we don't do lockups' even though I was passing in and out of consciousness. It scares me to even consider whether those half-wits would've said the same thing had someone actually been killed. The other 4 guys had driven off just before the cops turned up, though the driver spilled the beans and the police knew who the others were and my gf had also noted the plates of their car and their descriptions. However those 4 got off completely because the pea-brained detective assigned to the case forgot, no joke, to get us to i.d them within a specified period and therefore their case was dropped. The driver was eventually found guilty but due to him commiting the crime when he was 17, and the sentencing being after he'd turned 18, they didn't want to give him time cos it'd be in jail, so they let him go on a 12 month good behaviour 'watch'..no fine, community service, nothing, nevermind he even had previous assault convictions. Yep, that's how our legal system works. Oh well at least we know that the real criminals who do 10km over the speed limit will have to pay a fine. 2 years and 12 grand in medical bills later, I'm still waiting for the compensation that supposedly comes from a component of speeding fines. You would think it'd make a tad more sense to force the low-life to sell his torana to pay for my medical bills?

    Anyway, I guess I still have 'issues' with the whole thing The only thing I'll add is that the risk of bringing a club-lock out is that it has serious potential to be be used against you.
    Take the long way home....

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    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Thats a horrible story Louis, at least there was some sort of justice in the end...

    I feel sorry for you Jastanis, those pricks got off just a slap on the wrist...

    you can't rely on the police at all can you... your right, they're more than happy to hand out bullshit speeding fines, but they cant handle the real problems... The guy who did it sounds like a real f**khead, what goes around comes around, he'll get whats coming for him eventually.
    I'd chase up the compensation/medical bills though, have you spoken to a lawyer about it? 12 grand is too much to just let it slip..
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    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason20
    Thats a horrible story Louis, at least there was some sort of justice in the end...

    I feel sorry for you Jastanis, those pricks got off just a slap on the wrist...

    you can't rely on the police at all can you... your right, they're more than happy to hand out bullshit speeding fines, but they cant handle the real problems... The guy who did it sounds like a real f**khead, what goes around comes around, he'll get whats coming for him eventually.
    I'd chase up the compensation/medical bills though, have you spoken to a lawyer about it? 12 grand is too much to just let it slip..
    I'm not interested in revenge, the guy's life mustn't be too crash hot if his hobby is to go around with his gang boys beating up people. I'm more concerned about their next victim. It just peeves me off more that 5 out of the 6 cops I dealt with during the whole saga were certainly no example of Sth Australia's 'finest' and the legal system is full of more holes than swiss cheese. I thought mine was an isolated case, but have since found out it's not.

    Yeah I lodged the compensation immediately after the incident with a lawyer who is part of Victims of Crime, a government funded system for financial loss stemming from being a victim of crime. The money that can be claimed has to be validated by receipts so there's none of this claiming for 'pain and suffering' except for those receipts from visits to the shrink. In theory it sounds alright, but so far it's been 2 yrs and I'm still waiting..apparently it can sometimes take 5 yrs or longer before the money comes through.
    Last edited by jastanis; 25th October 2004 at 09:40 PM.
    Take the long way home....

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    When the kids that live in the same street as my nephews on the Gold Coast play up, they really play up... and one nephew is sensitive and likes quiet when he gets home at midnight so he can get some sleep...

    So he knows how to call the cops to get this rabble off the street. But they don't come... they aren't even at the local station... in fact, he knows that he has to call a major police station much further away... and then maybe they come. Maybe.

    One night this was going on, his brother went to follow his girlfriend home and somehow ran into the back of her car at a roundabout... so Ben was called to help... they went down, my sister and Ben, and then they returned with all the goodies out of the brother's car because it was being towed.

    Then they dashed... in another car... back to the scene to help out some more. Don't know why they went home, but they did. Anyway, while they were gone, the rampant kids raided my sister's van and pinched a pile of valuable stuff that they'd retrieved out of the other car.

    The went back to calling the police... the ones who still hadn't come from the earlier calls. Next morning they rang again... to be told: "You should have called us last night."

    In the meantime, a police car had turned up at the accident and charged the brother...

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    The weirdest thing was, earlier that day of the incident, I'd found out a friend had fell over and broken his arm and was thinking to myself 'Wow I'm pretty lucky to not have broken any bones so far in life....' Teaches me to jinx myself!

    I did consider a civil suit and consulted a couple of lawyers, but unless the guy is really rich (which he wasn't) it wasn't worth it and the lawyers told me flat out that unless I had money to burn (of which I'd already burnt at hospital) it wasn't worth it. Would've been different if he was Kerry Packers son, but he was far from it. Anyway, what's done is done. Just goes to show it's too easy to get into trouble even when not trying; so much better to let these morons go on their merry way and definitely not provoke them.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    I strongly agree with Ray here.....people need to learn to get out of the way. Full stop....why, because one never knows what kind of pshycho is in the other car or for that matter what is their urgency......Keep an eye on your rear view mirrors and GET THE HELL out of there if somebodys on your back......I don t care much for idiots trying to be POLICE OFFICERS of the road....so many deserve the middle finger they get.....So, you admittedly F###ed UP, we ve all done it at one time or another and the best thing you can take from it is a lesson learned and hopefully not repeated.....
    As for advice....well if you r willing to PLAY the game you d better know your car well, the locale you are driving in and how well you can make your car dance....I don t like being bullied for stupid reasons or as a form of entertainment for these morons so I have on many occasions put them in their place.....Many of these dickheads are real cowards and use the shell that is their car as ARMOUR behind which their egos and arrogance sometimes seems inpenetrable.....but I assure you....if you are half skilled as a driver and have the right mindset...yes they can be tought a lesson even at a cost of a few scratched panels.....
    But I have RUN 2 before so its definitely nothing to be ashamed about....you ve got to be able to "judge" the situation and consider the consequences to the environment at hand ie.pedestreans etc.....
    But i d say....9 out of 10 times...just move over and JESTURE applogetically.....but for that one time when such actions do not work (and my or my familys physical being is at threat)....I d make sure they end up praying to god they d never crossed my path......


    cheers


    dino

    ps....regarding...club-locks....I m sorry I disagree with this attitude...why? because they r not going to cut of a hand like a sword would for example.....so they can actually be TAKEN from you (if you do not have sufficient skill) and then used aginst you as a weapon much more deadlier then a simple fist might have been......so I d errr on caution here guys.....This kind of attitude might do more harm than good.....especially if the oppnonent is drunk, drugged or besides themselfs........so take care....

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    just to add my to this, I would leave well alone and stay out of the situation unless you know exactly what you're doing and that includes training in how to defend yourself properly , and not just self defense courses. I don't have any road rage stories to tell of but I have seen plenty of "rage" in general, especially at two of the places, being young I frequent on occasions. I've seen many a person, friends included get themselves in situations that they can't handle and security, police and bouncers have failed to step in. Only a few months ago I had to stand in the middle of some d*#$head who being drunk decided it would be fun to see if he could take on a kid, and what I did in the end when common sense wouldn't come to him, is that I let him learn his lesson and literally get his head kicked in whist lying on the ground by a bunch of the kids mates that were waiting around the corner. Point is there, is that unless you know the situation your best to leave it the hell alone. One other occasion was when one of my friends brothers got into a situation he couldn't handle and what did my friend do, but smash a beer bottle over the guys had, to which the police's response was to charge him with assault again not a situation where self defense is going to hold up in a court of law and a situation where you'd best leave it alone even if it is your friend or family member.

    Really the best thing you can do is avoid the situation, and where that fails get yourself some good martial arts (not some stupid self defense course which has proven not to work) training and no what your limits are when getting yourself into a bad situation, how far you can go and don’t be the one that throws the first blow.

    Also all the talk of having a “weapon” in your car is well and good, but when you have no clue on how to use it properly you are at more risk of getting yourself into sh*# from it then defending yourself. If someone came at me with a steering lock I’d be just as likely to grab it out of there hands and knock them out with it.

    Another lesson to be learned there is that when you take someone on, do you really know all be it that they may be smaller then you that you can actually win the fight if they know what there doing

    Leave well alone, unless you have no other choice, unless you have no other choice Its not worth using your macho bravado

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    just to add my to this, I would leave well alone and stay out of the situation unless you know exactly what you're doing and that includes training in how to defend yourself properly , and not just self defense courses. I don't have any road rage stories to tell of but I have seen plenty of "rage" in general, especially at two of the places, being young I frequent on occasions. I've seen many a person, friends included get themselves in situations that they can't handle and security, police and bouncers have failed to step in. Only a few months ago I had to stand in the middle of some d*#$head who being drunk decided it would be fun to see if he could take on a kid, and what I did in the end when common sense wouldn't come to him, is that I let him learn his lesson and literally get his head kicked in whist lying on the ground by a bunch of the kids mates that were waiting around the corner. Point is there, is that unless you know the situation your best to leave it the hell alone. One other occasion was when one of my friends brothers got into a situation he couldn't handle and what did my friend do, but smash a beer bottle over the guys had, to which the police's response was to charge him with assault again not a situation where self defense is going to hold up in a court of law and a situation where you'd best leave it alone even if it is your friend or family member.

    Really the best thing you can do is avoid the situation, and where that fails get yourself some good martial arts (not some stupid self defense course which has proven not to work) training and no what your limits are when getting yourself into a bad situation, how far you can go and don’t be the one that throws the first blow.

    Also all the talk of having a “weapon” in your car is well and good, but when you have no clue on how to use it properly you are at more risk of getting yourself into sh*# from it then defending yourself. If someone came at me with a steering lock I’d be just as likely to grab it out of there hands and knock them out with it.

    Another lesson to be learned there is that when you take someone on, do you really know all be it that they may be smaller then you that you can actually win the fight if they know what there doing

    Leave well alone, unless you have no other choice, unless you have no other choice Its not worth using your macho bravado
    No, martial arts or not AVOID confrontation. I've haven't been to Ninjutsu for a long time, but I've done enough training to know there is a lot of poeple out there that really know how to take care of themselves. You may think your really tough and fast, but trust me, even if your on your 2nd or 3rd black belt there is a lot of poeple out there that WILL cream you. You will not realise until you wake up in hospital (yes It'll only take them one punch/kick that you probably didn't even spot to knock you senseless). If you have a weapon they can take from you .......................

    Avoidance is always the best solution.

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    No, martial arts or not AVOID confrontation. I've haven't been to Ninjutsu for a long time, but I've done enough training to know there is a lot of poeple out there that really know how to take care of themselves. You may think your really tough and fast, but trust me, even if your on your 2nd or 3rd black belt there is a lot of poeple out there that WILL cream you. You will not realise until you wake up in hospital (yes It'll only take them one punch/kick that you probably didn't even spot to knock you senseless). If you have a weapon they can take from you .......................

    Avoidance is always the best solution.

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    That was my point, that avoidance is your best solution. You’re not a coward if you run rather then getting your head bashed in, but when you have to defend yourself (and there are situtions that ocur where you have no other choice) you are a far better chance when you have training then not. Also you are much worse off carrying a weapon other then a gun, and I’m not a pro gun activist but it is the only weapon where you would be better off in a last resort situation without any real training. People think that just because they may be able to bonk someone over the head with a steering lock that they can do it to everyone. Well one day people like that are going to meet there match. Point of fact the only weapon that you're better off with no real training is a gun (and I know even that won’t help in the wrong situation) and a crowbar, steering lock in the end is going to hinder rather then help you, unless you truly know how to use it.

    But as Shane put it, unless you have no other choice RUN and if your carying a wepon without proper training then .
    Last edited by orestes; 26th October 2004 at 05:15 PM.

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