2nd hand buying advice/opinions.... help.
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Default 2nd hand buying advice/opinions.... help.

    Fellow froggers.
    Later this year the 306 might have to make part, as I wan't a better towing car. I would like your opinions or advice taking into account the following:

    a) Has to be able to TOW, reasonably well, about a 250Kg trailer (go-kart).
    b) Reliability plus.
    c) Must be able to live outside, ie street parking.
    d) Much prefer a station wagon.

    Other things to also sway is fuel economy, service cost, steal-ability etc.

    So far the contenders are 505 Pug, 97> Magna and 96> Camry. (you'd be suprised at the trading post prices of those last two). I'm not badge concious.

    What about an ex-taxi?

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    I also noticed x2 505's in the for sale, could one of these be it?

    Budget is already set but would like to keep as low as I can, however nothing above $6000.

    So what are we thinking?

    -Chris

    ps. I'm not fussed about being french loyal, lets face it I plan to do the bare minimum in terms of upkeep, id much rather buy and frenchie and treat it right than to run it into the ground.
    Last edited by CHRI'S16; 20th September 2004 at 02:55 PM. Reason: is froggy chat ok? or should it be in cars wtd/4sale.
    ... ptui!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I find my 306 tows quite well, even up to my 4CV on a trailer when it wasn't registered. This would have been around 1050Kg, yes a little over the 1000Kg braked trailer max for a 306. It really did it quite easily. Just don't point it at a wet, grassy slope and expect traction.

    Towed an old heavy bike trailer to Mackay to pick up a BMW. The wind and road drag caused the fuel economy to drop around 5 MPG. Still got 38.

    Stay with the 306.
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  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    well i do know the red 505 sedan in the for sales has been strengthened up in the rear end for towing and has a hayman reese towbar attached

    it is a carby 505 with the 15"GTI wheels on it

    505 SR for sale

    well worth a look as the last time i saw it at the end of last year it was in pretty good shape and hasn't really done too much since then
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    only 250kgs A 3cylinder Dahatsu (sp ??) serion would tow that. Just whack on a towbar and don't worry about it.

    If your after a real towcar for upto 1200kgs I don't think you could go past a Citroen Xantia with it's self leveling suspension and incredible torsional body strength. Just make sure it's a CT turbo or V6

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    I fit my Clubman *in* my little Citroen GS over the weekend.

    The car cost me $200, and its the only Citroen I've owned that hasn't seen the back of a towtruck yet. It's never let me down.

    I know that doesn't help much, just wanted to say it

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ... the problem is I don't want to, actually couldn't, park the 306 outside. I don't live in the safest suburb so a nice S16 wouldn't last long. The car would be there all day and night unattended. Black car, ozi sun..mmm.
    Also 90% of the kart tracks are grass or pebble surfaces, so the 306 traction issue is a real bummer. It also has a heavy clutch in it so.... mmm. I use the S16 now, but its not a happy camper, S16's are rated at 750 Kg braked trailer, and mine dosn't have brakes. Once im going it's not too bad.
    I think one of 505's might just have to do it.

    Any one else with options. - Chris
    Last edited by CHRI'S16; 20th September 2004 at 06:16 PM.
    ... ptui!

  7. #7
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    My Mi has a towbar - the bloke used to tow a light trailer (big model boats). How about a 405 of some description?

    Stu

  8. #8
    nJm
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    My 505 came with a tow bar on it. I've never used it, but I can imagine it would be quite ok. The sedans have soft IRS, so might not be fantastic for heavy loads? The wagons have a solid rear axle which I guess would be better. Having RWD is also good for towing (vs squishy fwd Magna/Camry). We tried towing a trailer full of ceramic tiles once with a Toyota Vienta (V6 Camry, 1995 model). It was hard getting traction as it lifted the nose right up with all that weight over the rear.

    I would have thought something like a Commodore or Falcon would be a logical choice, no matter how much we dislike them.

    Pugrambo, what's the story with that red 505 SR's front bumper? Looks aftermarket? Actually, it looks like someone put a lot of effort into that 505.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    My 505 came with a tow bar on it. I've never used it, but I can imagine it would be quite ok. The sedans have soft IRS, so might not be fantastic for heavy loads? The wagons have a solid rear axle which I guess would be better. Having RWD is also good for towing (vs squishy fwd Magna/Camry). We tried towing a trailer full of ceramic tiles once with a Toyota Vienta (V6 Camry, 1995 model). It was hard getting traction as it lifted the nose right up with all that weight over the rear.

    I would have thought something like a Commodore or Falcon would be a logical choice, no matter how much we dislike them.

    Pugrambo, what's the story with that red 505 SR's front bumper? Looks aftermarket? Actually, it looks like someone put a lot of effort into that 505.


    towing light loads with a 505 sedan is fine but if they are used for towing heavier items the rear guards start to buckle and hence the one in the for sales section was strengthened before this happened

    the front bumper is from a nissan pintara and it looks quite good and fitted very well

    Matt has put a bit of time and labour into the car and is a pretty good example

    the thing that suprised me was it is red and has been looked after pretty well and still looks red and not pink

    the red suits the 505 in my opinion
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  10. #10
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    if you dont want anyone to steal it then a citroen would be the go, because nobody wants to steal a citroen, and besides, they wouldnt know how to drive it if they did get into it. we had a cx that towed a trailer full of building materials and tools all the time and didnt miss a beat, how ever, upkeep can be a pain........soooo...........a 504?

    we also had a manual 504 sedan as the other work car full of tools and people. and it towed the trailer sometimes too. (twas a funny sight to see the looks on faces as well pulled up out the front of a worksite...lol lol) but back to the point, i recon a 504 has less up keep then a 505, and the 504wagon is built like a truck, with four coil springs over the solid rear diff and heaps of space for junk and people. very basic car, nothing to break, and no appeal to a would be car theif, cheap as chips, very reliable if basic needs are cared for (arnt all cars? if given the basic care?) comfortable, some even have air conditioning:-D.

    ok yer i know downside, its old, but look on the bright side, its got character?!?!?!? itll start a conversation at the go cart club?!?!?!?

    but oh well, just my opinion anyways :-)
    Last edited by 1971504sedan; 20th September 2004 at 09:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Well if you end up selling parts off the S16 let me know

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! matt205's Avatar
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    Camry,

    Cheap, simple and will run forever and no-one will steal a car that is that ugly! If you're ever out in the middle of no-where at a Kart meeting and need parts any K-Mart or 2-bit hick town auto parts place will have parts for it. Anyone ever tried to find a Peugeot fan belt in a small country town on a sunday afternoon?
    Regards,
    Matt
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  13. #13
    Member Scott's Avatar
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    camry, my next car will be a toyota avalon, cheap, reliable, great second hand buy. Rear wheel drive is always going to be better for towing. An old 504 would be good, there is two that I know something about in our town. One is a diesel car that is used by a hay contractor and has over 1 million Km on and is still used every day, mostly with a full load in the boot. The other one is a petrol wagon with 800,000km on the clock. Both owners love them to bits. Parts are always a problem when in the country. You have to order them in, and that takes time.
    Best of luck.
    1987 Peugeot 505 GTD 2.5 Turbo

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott
    camry, my next car will be a toyota avalon, cheap, reliable, great second hand buy. Rear wheel drive is always going to be better for towing. An old 504 would be good, there is two that I know something about in our town. One is a diesel car that is used by a hay contractor and has over 1 million Km on and is still used every day, mostly with a full load in the boot. The other one is a petrol wagon with 800,000km on the clock. Both owners love them to bits. Parts are always a problem when in the country. You have to order them in, and that takes time.
    Best of luck.
    I don't know why you guys keep stating that FWD is no good for towing. My grandfather was a truck/car mechanic most of his life, and used to drive trucks quite a bit (so knows about towing big loads). He swears FWD's kill RWD's for towing stability. The only let down is trying to pull away and slippery surfaces, but hey how often do people leave a sealed road when towing heavy loads

    The old Citroen CX has towed anything and everything I can swing from a towbar, no problems, exceptionally stable ... Infact I've never even used level bars (that are always required on the much inferior RWD cars unless you want a very unstable trailer behind you).

    Really it sounds like you just need a cheap car, I don't think you could go past a 4cylinder 5speed magna/camry. There tough as nails, boring and hell (who would bother steeling one, let alone go to the effort of vandalising it ). My grandfather has towed his caravan for the last 20years with a series of 4cylinder magna's and swears by them.

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  15. #15
    Member DSpecial1's Avatar
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    At the risk of being ostacised from this forum, I will put in a good word for the Magna. I bought one at auction 4 years ago, and it has proved to be completely reliable. Boring to drive, certainly - and it really doesnt like to go round corners. Resale is completely ratsh!t, which makes them a bargain to pick up second hand (mine was 2 yrs old, 40k kms and I got it for less than 1/2 of the original new price).

    But, it does have strengths
    - Plenty of power with good economy
    - Easy to service (why other car manufacturers insist on putting the oil filter in completely inaccessable places, where you always end up losing knuckle skin and burn whats left on the hot exhaust really gets me frustrated). I have also owned several Lancers, and they were also easy to service.
    - Reliable (mine has never broken down)
    - Cheap parts
    - They are cheap to buy
    - They dont cost much
    - Did I mention they are cheap?

    Value-for-money wise, it is pretty hard to go past. Save the Froggie for weekend fun!
    Michael W

    74 D Special

  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    As someone suggested, go a CX.
    Tough as an old boot. Cheap as chips to buy; a ripper will only cost about $4K and there's heaps around for $2000 approx. but it has to be a c-matic.
    I owned one for 3 years and used it for everything and it was indestructable and so reliable it was impossible to fault. They cost a lot to mainytain if you use a clown to work on them but they are as basic a car as you'll find; like a French FJ
    And tow......well I'll defy anything of any brand to out tow one; see what I mean?? Try some of the Jap crap out snigging a few of these around or better still, see if the RWDs can get traction on the grass to start with.

    Alan S

    Last edited by Alan S; 21st September 2004 at 05:06 PM.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    As someone suggested, go a CX.
    Tough as an old boot. Cheap as chips to buy; a ripper will only cost about $4K and there's heaps around for $2000 approx. but it has to be a c-matic.
    I owned one for 3 years and used it for everything and it was indestructable and so reliable it was impossible to fault. They cost a lot to mainytain if you use a clown to work on them but they are as basic a car as you'll find; like a French FJ
    And tow......well I'll defy anything of any brand to out tow one; see what I mean?? Try some of the Jap crap out snigging a few of these around or better still, see if the RWDs can get traction on the grass to start with.

    Alan S

    Alan,

    mate we don't want him trashing the few really good examples of CX's left by leaving it out on the street where it'll get sunburnt, full of water and vandalised..... Save the few goodies that are left for us enthusiests (yes I am greedy ). I think he has Magna/Camry written all over him

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    nJm
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    I don't think you need RWD for towing. I was just remembering trying to move a heavy load with a (new and fancy) Toyota Vienta/Camry. I understand that a Citroen would be great for towing as they have self leveling suspension, and naturally you can lower it to make it easier to hitch the trailer on etc. I have seen lots of Magna's towing trailers and I must admit I have to wonder. We had a 1995 Magna V6 auto. The automatic died twice and the engine was blowing smoke at 150,000km. We sold it for $3,500 earlier this year. The TR/TS Magna's aren't the worst cars in the world, but the TP (80s brick) I drove had the softest suspension I've ever experienced. It was ridiculous, you couldn't go around corners as it felt like there wasn't any rigidity in the chassis and a lack of an anti-roll bar at the front.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ... Im sort of gathering that 505 sedans are a little weak in the rear for towing?

    I have to admit i am leaning on the cheap camry option. Honestly a frenchie would be nice, but like Shane said, leave 'em for the enthusiast's. The Camry is boring but dependable, no more than a cared for Cit or Ren or Pug, but certainly being able to shop at K-mart and my local (30 seconds on my bike away) Repco makes for relatively easy care.

    Plus I'd feel terrible leaving a lovely Cit in the extremes, which any inner west suburb of sydney supply in leaps and bounds.

    I'm not actually looking forward to getting a jap box, but my S16 just dosn't lend itself to towing and ive have had several close calls at the kart tracks, with people "...just having a look mate" (bonnet up!!) way too much.

    What do we all think of those Suzuki Sierra's

    If any one has more ideas please let me know. - Chris

    PS. I should clarify, the trailer alone is 250Kg, so with all my tools and the kart and fuel... well over 400Kg.
    ... ptui!

  20. #20
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    the cx is a terrific car yes, we've had a few. and it tows like a truck. but, theres a few more POTENTIAL things to break, not that they break all the time, but theres more there. haveing said that, a little cx 2200 with manual box and steering is pretty basic. nothing out of the ordinary, the HP pump is only the single cylinder one. LHM is expensive off the shelf but most good backyard french car mechanics can get it cheap for you.

    but ya cant beat a 504 for almost the cheapest most reliable and easy to fix car.

    if you wanted genuine peugeot parts, then it would be a nightmare out bush, but,

    >it takes a standard ryco Z69 oil filter.
    >the PARISRHONE dizy takes the same points found in most commodores.
    >sparkplugs can be bought off the shelf at super cheap and most servos and everywhere else.
    >the altinator is commonly a bosch, (unless it still has the original ducellier), which you can get parts for everywhere.
    >the fan belt has about 60-70mm adjustment in it, so a fan belt wouldnt be hard to get near enough.
    >solex/zenith carbys are quite common and youve got a better chance getting a carby fixed out bush then an EFI computer. (not that ive looked under a camry/magna bonnet but im assuming)

    and ill say again, just so nobody gets upset at me , the cx is a beautiful car, we had a few, and my brother in law still has his and its great. even he says though, "a simpler car is sometimes nicer, but hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

    thats my thoughts anyhow.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! bazgti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971504sedan
    if you dont want anyone to steal it then a citroen would be the go, because nobody wants to steal a citroen, and besides, they wouldnt know how to drive it if they did get into it. we had a cx that towed a trailer full of building materials and tools all the time and didnt miss a beat, how ever, upkeep can be a pain........soooo...........a 504?

    we also had a manual 504 sedan as the other work car full of tools and people. and it towed the trailer sometimes too. (twas a funny sight to see the looks on faces as well pulled up out the front of a worksite...lol lol) but back to the point, i recon a 504 has less up keep then a 505, and the 504wagon is built like a truck, with four coil springs over the solid rear diff and heaps of space for junk and people. very basic car, nothing to break, and no appeal to a would be car theif, cheap as chips, very reliable if basic needs are cared for (arnt all cars? if given the basic care?) comfortable, some even have air conditioning:-D.

    ok yer i know downside, its old, but look on the bright side, its got character?!?!?!? itll start a conversation at the go cart club?!?!?!?

    but oh well, just my opinion anyways :-)
    i totally agree with the 504 theory ,i used to tow lots of stuff with my old 1970 1800cc 504.you wont get off the mark fast but there very strong cars and once up and running its effortless,they go forever too,i had my 1970 504 for 9 years and only changed the starter and the radiator and it went from melb-syd-qld rwice and melb to adelaide twice and also one trip to sydney after that.selling that car was by far one of the biggest regrets of my life i still miss it.lots of room in the boot for go kart spares and the like-bazz

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Chris.

    Definitely get a Camry. Dee and I now have 2 of them, a 4cyl 93 sedan and a 95 Vienta wagon. The only downside is that you can't get a manual V6 wagon in that widebody shape. We bought the wagon to tow my kart trailer (approx 250kg empty) and to fit all the baby stuff in. Its a much better towing proposition than the 4cyl. We only paid $7,200 for it and its in very good condition. It does have 200,000km on the clock but it feels like its only done 100,000km.

    Just last week we had the following done:
    - timing belt
    - front pads
    - front discs machined
    - tranny fluid changed
    - oil and filter changed
    - cooling system flushed
    - check over the whole car
    - fix an exhaust rattle

    Now that cost me just over $500.

    I'm really happy with it.

    Darren

  23. #23
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    Hi Chris,

    I was in the Go Karting scene for about 6 years as prior to my dad having his Mi16, we used to tow my kart around with his Renault Fuego. We towed a fully enclosed single kart trailer, that was not exactly light, full of tools and some spares as the Fuego was able to cope with the towing without the rear end sitting on its a##. If you plan on competing in larger race meetings that require you to travel far, then I would suggest that you go for a Camry. However, if you intend to compete in race meetings that are relatively close to home, then a Fuego or 505 GTI maybe an option. Out of curiosity, are you racing a rotax 125? I have driven one of them before and boy was that fun!

    Cheers,

    Damien

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_205Mi16
    Hi Chris,

    I was in the Go Karting scene for about 6 years as prior to my dad having his Mi16, we used to tow my kart around with his Renault Fuego. We towed a fully enclosed single kart trailer, that was not exactly light, full of tools and some spares as the Fuego was able to cope with the towing without the rear end sitting on its a##. If you plan on competing in larger race meetings that require you to travel far, then I would suggest that you go for a Camry. However, if you intend to compete in race meetings that are relatively close to home, then a Fuego or 505 GTI maybe an option. Out of curiosity, are you racing a rotax 125? I have driven one of them before and boy was that fun!

    Cheers,

    Damien
    I plan to do most of the NSW events like Lithgow, EC, Oran Prk, Newcastle, Wollongong, Goulburn etc, so there is a few K's that can be racked up.
    I have too much respect for Fuego's to leave em parked out all day/night. Looks like Camry will be it.
    Yes, Rotax 125..... lurv it. When I practice, i like to wind up the other rotax racers by removing all my lead and going out real light... 140 Kg total and then run rings around them so they can see my P's.. - Chris
    ... ptui!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16
    Looks like Camry will be it.
    How about a Holden Apollo? Same think likely cheaper because of the badge engineering effect.

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