When petrol prices go up what do we do?
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Default When petrol prices go up what do we do?

    Well i think in the near future petrol prices are going to become more and more rediculous, so I can see one of these (or similar) in my future for daily commuting and a froggie car as a weekender. Does anyone know how much these little beasts cost?
    Also what sort of fuel consumption can you get with these?
    This is the 50cc Vivacity (can be driven on car license).




    Dave

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  2. #2
    Simon's Avatar
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    Typical prices seem to be around the mid $3K mark.

    http://www.scootermarket.com.au/index.htm

    As a daily commuter though, especially during the winter I'd see a few problems especially if you don't like getting wet. $3.5K buys a reasonable amount of petrol even at $1.30 per litre.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Hi Dave
    I commute EVERY DAY, into Sydney CBD on my bike, and recently had the pleasure (?) of riding one of these Peugeot Scooters...
    I hate to say this, but its not a very good product. You can get a 2003 250cc near new full size bike for the price of $4999 which the 50cc sells for. The wheels on nearly ALL scooters are just to small for Sydney's poor roads, even a little bump or pot hole sends you flying of your seat, because the little wheels just fall right in then out. The bigger 150cc models arent to bad, but Peugeot don't carry this line into Aus.
    Scooters are EXECELENT on fuel, as long as you don't want to go much above 60Kph, the 50cc's struggle up hills or keeping up with cars, the engine uses up excess fuel because you need to wring the throttle to just keep up with traffic. Going slower than traffic is how you get taken out...
    The pug scooter has poor power to weight and dosn't feel as well made compared to the more established brands, having said that the Picasso 125cc from Vespa is the best I have riden, felt very sure and steady, right mix of power and weight.
    I also look at it like this, the only people using scooters on a regular basis is pizza guys, but even then the smallest model they use is a 100cc, with 12 inch wheels.... ALL full time motorbike curiers use full size bikes.
    I also have no problem leaving the little things behind through the traffic, as their wide front and poor handling means that you can't do the things bike do best in traffic,... nudge nudge.- Chris

    ps.... maybe if we were like rome....
    ... ptui!

  4. #4
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRI'S16

    ps.... maybe if we were like rome....
    Or Paris? All two wheeled vehicles are allowed to use the Bus Lanes in Paris. It is a hoot watching the traffic light derbies over there. Bus v Bike
    Craig K
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    I personally think that petrol prices are cracked up to be more significant than they really are to us. I had a volvo before the 205. It burnt twice as much fuel. I lived with it. Thats the equivalent of paying $2/l+ in the 205.

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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Or Paris? All two wheeled vehicles are allowed to use the Bus Lanes in Paris. It is a hoot watching the traffic light derbies over there. Bus v Bike
    ...well in sydney thats the case too, Bikes are allowed and encouraged to use the BUS lane...lol-Chris
    ... ptui!

  7. #7
    rek
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    I personally think that petrol prices are cracked up to be more significant than they really are to us. I had a volvo before the 205. It burnt twice as much fuel. I lived with it. Thats the equivalent of paying $2/l+ in the 205.
    I agree.. for most people living in a city (or otherwise not having to do heaps of kays a year), the price of fuel will have to drastically increase before people will actually be compelled to change their mode of transportation.

    Let's say that someone uses 50 litres a week, at $1 a litre that's $2600 of petrol expenses for the year. Now say petrol price goes up 50% (!!) to $1.50 a litre. It'd cost "only" an extra $1300 a year to continue their current motoring habits.

    It's easier (and cheaper in all but the long term) for them to just pay the extra $1300, than go out and buy a fuel-efficient car/scooter, sell the old one, change the way they commute etc. or whatever.
    Peter
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    HDI ????

    Wouldn't that be the go - same economy as a "smart" car but you get air bags,room for 5, a boot, cruise control, aircon, trip computer and the most important thing is arm rests

    How can you go wrong ?

    Tom

  9. #9
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    i agree, diesel is the fuel of the future.

    a) modern diesel and diesel cars are cleaner then there petrol counterparts
    b) you get very nice fuel econemy
    c) out of some of the modern diesel engines, you get similiar if not as good performance

    i can't see why more people don't drive diesels
    Last edited by orestes; 23rd August 2004 at 07:10 PM.

  10. #10
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    some very good points raised here.
    for the time being diesel is the fuel of the future, efficient, clean, powerful, and if the government/oil companies/car companies allow, can be converted to run on bio diesel, that is diesel made from vegetable oils. that is until some intelligent little vegemite comes up with a more efficient renewable resource to use for fuel.

    chri's16 is right about the scooters (in my opinion) you are far better off getting a full size bike as they can keep up with the traffic and handle much better on the poor australian roads, also they are about the same price and most are much more proven.

    or just get a pushbike

    p.s. if anyone out there actually invents a purpetual motion machine i'd be happy to buy the rights off you for a couple of slabes of beer and handle all thatmedia for you!!

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    I'll put in a vote for the diesel. I have a 307 HDI (as well as 504) and have had no problems with it in 23,500 kms. I get 850 kms per 60 liter tank around town and 1000 kms on a trip at 100 kms/hr. Have driven from Brisbane to Dubbo and around Dubbo for a week on one tank. Total of 1100 kms.

    Purchase price $29,500. Reasonable motoring I reckon.

    I've ridden bikes in town. Other drivers do not see you and it can get cold ..

    Peter J.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    The reason bikes are so cheap to run is power to weight, my 250 ZZR flogs 99% of cars of the lights and on all major roads. I ride 240Km a week, costing me $11.00 in fuel (and thats for 98ron @ $1.10 a litre). My total insurance, tyres and upkeep cost another $10 a week... so hmm.-Chris
    ... ptui!

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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Well I cant wait until we see a diesel C3 HDI that will be the best in the world....Or megane maybe...

  14. #14
    XTC
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    Anything that makes large urban poluting 2 tonne 4WD drivers think twice about buying them (massive petrol costs) is fine by me. Eventually I suspect sub 2ltr cars will become increasingly popular (esp. if we adopt a tax stance like S'pore and engine capacity).

    - XTC -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  15. #15
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    Default Scooters - great stuff!

    Greetings y'all;

    Prior to picking my new C2, I used to commute 80 km per day on a scooter to work. I still use it once or twice a week to commute.

    It is a Vespa GT200 - enough poke to propel my large mass at 110 km/h on the freeway, and since it is larger in the body, and has 12" wheels instead of 8 or 10" wheels, it handles large potholes pretty well.

    Fuel consumption averages 25 km/l, which is quite good - apart from which, I don't pay tolls or worry about parking when I ride it.

    The downsides....mainly two - wearing clothing that is suitable for riding does not necessarily mean clothes that are suitable for corporate activity....and two, I cannot carry a huge amount of gear on the scoot...which is one reason I purchased the C2.

    Cheers,
    Tony - '04 C2 - Black
    '02 Triumph Sprint ST
    '05 Vespa PX200e

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! yawood's Avatar
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    Diesels are fantastic but make most sense if a) driven in Europe or b) used in a ute or truck. In the first case they are really economical because of the cost of diesel and the other tax incentives (eg lower rego) that European govts offer. In the second case they are great for their torque in that type of vehicle.

    As far as diesel cars, such as the Peugeot/Citroen HDi, I'd still buy one just because I like diesels but not because (in Australia) I wanted to save money. Their higher initial purchase price, plus the generally higher cost of diesel (compared to ULP, though that may change) means that you have to drive up to 60k or more Km before you break even. If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, or doing a high number of Km (and you look after it) then you also save some on maintenance. Even that last saving is changing because modern petrol engines do large distances between services (my BMW is only serviced every 25k) whereas diesels are still pretty dependent on regular oil changes at least.

    The other option is gas, which is what I intend to do with my Falcon. Again there are considerations such as the need for an engine that's happy on gas. Also the savings on gas are dependent on the price staying low because you certainly don't get a lower consumption from it (and you lose slightly in performance).

    If you're really after economy, then perhaps a diesel using old oil from the fish & chip shop down the road; Cruiserman swears by bio-diesel. Eventually there won't be enough of that either if everyone does it. Hybrid cars are another alternative but that means going away from your beloved froggy cars (at least for the moment).

    All-in-all, the best bet is probably to do nothing to your vehicle but start doing all your short trips to the shops by foot or pushbike. What you save in fuel and general maintenance will pay for the extra you pay at the pumps for the longer trips.
    Bruce

    Currently owned:
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    Previously owned:
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawood
    As far as diesel cars, such as the Peugeot/Citroen HDi, I'd still buy one just because I like diesels but not because (in Australia) I wanted to save money. Their higher initial purchase price, plus the generally higher cost of diesel (compared to ULP, though that may change) means that you have to drive up to 60k or more Km before you break even.
    you may pay even price or slightly more at the pump, however it is not dramaticliy more and as such the econemy of a diesel more then makes up for it. i would like to see any petrol engine that has the econemy of a diesel, and i would think you would be pretending if you could say your ccar had similiar econemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nchandler
    I personally think that petrol prices are cracked up to be more significant than they really are to us.
    People get too excited about petrol pricing back home - over in Denmark during the weekend, I was seeing approximately $2.10/l for a 92RON (yes, 92, not 91). It's not a lot cheaper in the poorer parts of Western Europe.

    People love to whinge about fuel discounting too - would you rather take the same price all week long, or have the chance to pick up fuel on a cheaper day?

    What we have at home is dirt cheap - it's generally cheaper than water in a supermarket!

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    you may pay even price or slightly more at the pump, however it is not dramaticliy more and as such the econemy of a diesel more then makes up for it.
    Not at all - a lot of people delude themselves into thinking a diesel is cheaper to run, because they all get rosy eyed looking at fuel consumption stats. It's like paying $4000 for a discount card that saves you $1 a trip.

    Lets have a look at one situation in Australia - 307 XS 1.6 vs 307 XS HDi.

    Diesel - $4000 more to purchase. Yes you get CC in the HDi, but you could get it in the 1.6 without trying IMHO.

    Fuel price - assume to be the same on average for simplicity. It's hardly going to make any significant difference to the calculations - PULP may be more expensive sometimes, but thanks to discounting can be cheaper than diesel on other occasions. Lets just say $1.10 a litre for both. I'm not going to factor in rural diesel subsidies.

    Mileage per year - 18,000km

    307 1.6 city fuel consumption- 7.8l/100km
    307 HDi city fuel consumption - 6.0l/100km

    Petrol Annual Fuel Cost - $1544
    Diesel Annual Fuel Cost - $1188

    You save $356 a year. If fuel prices are at $1.05/l, then you save about $340 a year. You paid $4000 for the privilege of saving $340 a year. Bleh

    Now, it gets worse. On that $4000 extra you pay for the HDi, you're either paying extra interest on a loan, or forgoing interest that could be earnt. If it's a loan, assume 9% or so - that's already $360 a year you are paying extra, and that will compound. Inflation will not make any significant difference.

    Basically - most people will never recoup the savings. If you think you're going to save money buying a diesel - think again. You buy one for its driving characteristics.

    Just remember, it's like paying for a $4000 discount card that basically won't even save you a dollar a day for the first year.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Icon12 What do I do.

    Well, I am getting my fuel consumption as low a possible on the 504. So i am not really all that worried about fuel price at this time.

    Als

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Not at all - a lot of people delude themselves into thinking a diesel is cheaper to run, because they all get rosy eyed looking at fuel consumption stats. It's like paying $4000 for a discount card that saves you $1 a trip.

    Lets have a look at one situation in Australia - 307 XS 1.6 vs 307 XS HDi.

    Diesel - $4000 more to purchase. Yes you get CC in the HDi, but you could get it in the 1.6 without trying IMHO.

    Fuel price - assume to be the same on average for simplicity. It's hardly going to make any significant difference to the calculations - PULP may be more expensive sometimes, but thanks to discounting can be cheaper than diesel on other occasions. Lets just say $1.10 a litre for both. I'm not going to factor in rural diesel subsidies.

    Mileage per year - 18,000km

    307 1.6 city fuel consumption- 7.8l/100km
    307 HDi city fuel consumption - 6.0l/100km

    Petrol Annual Fuel Cost - $1544
    Diesel Annual Fuel Cost - $1188

    You save $356 a year. If fuel prices are at $1.05/l, then you save about $340 a year. You paid $4000 for the privilege of saving $340 a year. Bleh

    Now, it gets worse. On that $4000 extra you pay for the HDi, you're either paying extra interest on a loan, or forgoing interest that could be earnt. If it's a loan, assume 9% or so - that's already $360 a year you are paying extra, and that will compound. Inflation will not make any significant difference.

    Basically - most people will never recoup the savings. If you think you're going to save money buying a diesel - think again. You buy one for its driving characteristics.

    Just remember, it's like paying for a $4000 discount card that basically won't even save you a dollar a day for the first year.


    the same could nearly be said for gas

    gas costs what ? around $2000 to put on a car and then it returns around 70-80% the mileage that petrol returns

    i'll stick to petrol thank you all the same
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! yawood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the same could nearly be said for gas

    gas costs what ? around $2000 to put on a car and then it returns around 70-80% the mileage that petrol returns

    i'll stick to petrol thank you all the same
    No, gas is better when you take it all into account. A vehicle uses about 20% more fuel on gas so my falcon will go to about 14.5l/100km (instead of 11.5). Therefore in 20,000km you use 2,300 l of petrol or 2,900 l of gas. Petrol is currently $1 per litre (actually I buy Optimax or equiv so I really pay more) and gas is 43c per litre (I can get it for 39c but we'll stick with pump prices). So, petrol is $2,300 and gas is $1,247, a saving of $1,053. Given that petrol is likely to rise in price far more than gas, the savings will be greater. A couple of year's driving and it's all in front from there.

    Add to that the fact that the extra tank will give me the equivalent of long range tanks in the ute for nearly twice the range and I'm laughing. I'm also lucky in that I won't lose any carrying space like you do if a tank has to go in the boot of a car.
    Last edited by yawood; 24th August 2004 at 11:04 PM.
    Bruce

    Currently owned:
    1988 505 GTi S2 Familial
    1999 E46 BMW 328Ci, 2002 Falcon AUIII Ute
    Previously owned:
    ('78-'81) 1970 504 (with the beautiful French seats)
    ('81-'89) 1977 504 (took the family on postings to Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Canberra)
    Brother owned:
    203,403,404,504 (each when they were current vehicles)

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ...although to be fair.....a 'diesel' will probably not depriciete as much as a petrol equivelant.....just look at the second hand market for srdt ees.....a basic 405 (petrol) can be had for 4K +....the equivelant in disel is much dearer and in greater demand..... hell even a mid seventies 300D still gets good money if in good nick.....

    I almost bought a 94 srdt at the time I was looking at s16eens and when it comes to value for money they R hard to beat.....

    Although if one is chasing a VERY economical car for next to nothing (ie a couple K).....then the car you r after is a GOLF....a late seventies or early eighties gld......I had one in my uni days and on more than a few occasions it delivered about 600 kays a tank (could do more i m sure).....Yes it did take half an hour to get to 100km/h but it was phenomenally economical.....My 300D was never really that economicall but atleast it had some poke...

    So....I think diesels make sense.....but in aussie its probbably cheaper to buy an lpg converted car.....there are many to choose from.......hell one of the kids that did some work at malvern autobarn had an LPG corrola......completelly cracked me up...but there you go....some people are just that tight....
    At the moment I m happy with the s16...a really nice compromise when it comes to fuel efficiency...ie....if driven POLITELY economy is great...but when pushed...well...thats another story....
    The car thats scaring me at the moment is the old merc...$20 of premium will get me about 60 miles yep 60 miles, something around 18 litres a 100kay...... just shudder each time I think about how much its cost me in the last few months....... no wonder there is a band out there called THIRSTY MERC....


    cheers


    dino

  24. #24
    rek
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    Old Mercs are cool though, you can't deny that.

    And you gotta love that 450SEL 6.9 they brought out in the middle of the 70s oil crisis
    Peter
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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    ....especially an old 280 s,.....EX funeral, black and plenty of chrome, 70K genuine miles....now all I need is the americana lights.....Would just love a 6.3 but those RE DEFINE the GUZZLER terminology, YES you can actually see the fuel guage needle MOVE.....

    Recent trip out to countryside was ironic......had a CALTEX tanker behind me most of the way......It was following me....while I was admiring the perfectly restored pink caddy ahead of me.....

    Cool thing about this merc is that its in such great mechanical condition and will happily sit on 80mph for hours....its a great cruiser.......no DS but a good gapfill till the right one comes along....





    dino

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