Climate Control Air Con vs "Normal" Air Con
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  1. #1
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    Default Climate Control Air Con vs "Normal" Air Con

    At the Sydney Steak night last night there was a discussion on climate control.

    GTI124 says he only likes climate control with dials (eg 306), so you can make quick temperature changes, or more particuarly, he hates climate control with buttons to set the temperature (ala 307, 206, C3 etc). He suggested cars with "normal" aircon are less distracting to set the temperature in than cars with button based climate control.

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    moosey and I decided he was just pedantic because we pretty much never change the temperature the climate control is set to.

    So, here's a thread to discuss opinions on air con in the modern French cars - is it the wonderful thing car salesmen promote it as, or is it a pain to use in your opinion?

    I for one think the dial climate control as used in the 306, 405 and series 1 Citroen XM (and probably more cars too) is great to use.

    Derek

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    I'm a closet dial fan too. The climate control thingie in the 307 looks pretty cool, but in reality it is confusing, distracting and difficult to use. A set of dials and their relative positions mean more to me than a display showing a measure of temperature.

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    Hmmmm, interesting topic Deka.

    Sounds like the steaks must have been a real topic churner

    My vote - climate control.

    My main point of discussion i want to add about this is the 'auto' function on the clio seems to work quite well (in my car anyway). Set the temperature and hit 'auto' and it will adjust the temp in the car, and use as much fan force as it needs, then it will lower the fan force once the temp is reached. So if anything - you'd be touching the controls less than a 'dial' - because you don't need to think about it. You set your temp, then hit auto. then forget about it.
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    All 306's have dials *with* the set-and-forget feature. Best of both worlds.

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    Ahhh - there ya go. I've not paid much attention the couple of times i have been in Deka's car.... Well - that is the best of both worlds then.

    I would probably agree to a certain extent with Lincoln's point about the climate being a nuasance (spelling?). But more in the case of the passengers becoming the nuasance - because they tend to fiddle with the settings more if it's a temperature reading, as apposed to dials. But then again - you'll always have friends that just fiddle with the instruments no matter what you've got. DAMMMMMN that annoys me.
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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Exactly right. It reminds me of the mate with a young son that likes the beep-beep sounds that the buttons on his boost controller made. That could have been a very expensive exercise

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    My issue is that I like to not use the AC all of the time. I prefer just cold air on free flow into the cabin. I also prefer to heat up the car this way.

    The 306 was very good, with a dialled climate control.

    But the 307, Golf GTI, Subaru Liberty, all have temperamental CCs where the air is too cold regardless of temperature. The Liberty is just plain psychotic in auto mode, and the the 307's MUX buttons shit me to not end. Hit... no, that didn't work... hit harder... yeah that kind worked... oh hang on, there's a delay after you hit it... friggin Peugeot. What have they done???!!! Stupid Stupid car. What have they done???????!!!!!!!

    Erm... yeah. My issue is mainly with free flowing air. Most of the time in Sydney the air temp outside is more than adequate to provide some cooling and some fresh air to the car. On most climate control systems, if you leave it at say 21, and then turn it off, it continues to warm up the fresh air to that temp as it comes into the car. As 21 is considered "warming" and with no AC to offset it, the car starts getting stuffy. So you wind down a window, or turn the AC/CC back on again. To get what I want, I have to hit the cold temp button 15 or so times and then turn it off.

    Yep, this means when I do actually want to use the CC, I have to hit the warm button 15 or so times to get back to 21.

    With dials. This whole process takes less than a second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    I'm a closet dial fan too. The climate control thingie in the 307 looks pretty cool, but in reality it is confusing, distracting and difficult to use. A set of dials and their relative positions mean more to me than a display showing a measure of temperature.
    It's not hard you know .... with CC set the temp and forget, I fail to see what's difficult about the current pug aircon setup ? Programming a VCR is harder It's temp up and down, re-circ air on/off (or otherwise known as the Landcruiser button), front demist, rear demist, fan speed, air control and eco mode (if you want to go manual). All of this is quite easy to do (IMHO) and the temp can be set without even taking your eyes off the road (esp when you are in 1st/3rd/5th .. it's just a small finger extention (normally the longest finger) - in the 206 anyway. Next thing manual tune radios will be back. For the most part, mine is set at 21 degrees .. winter or summer - "IT" does the adjustments.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of climate control at all.

    My CX has climate control (which is really good considering it isn't fitted with air-con ). The problem is if it's bloody 5degrees and freezing outside but the sun in bright and clear it only blasts cold air at you unless you overide the settings by turning the climate control to "as hot as it'll go". This is because the temperature sender is in the roof, and being Australia the sun can warm items like roofs/bonnets/bootlids extremely quickly even though the inside of the car is still cold.

    The Xantia has climate control with automatic fans. What a pain in the arse, if you want to be warmer they blow cold air at you, if your to hot they blow warm air at you (just try using that with a pregnant wife ). My wife either just turns it to full cold or full hot overiding the climate control everytime she drives the car The 'auto' fan is never used, it's a bloody pain too. Gimme good old fashioned "user selects" anyday.

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Problem is the ECO isn't off. It still uses the AC. Sometimes I don't want AC air, at all. Maybe, I'm just more sensitive to it, but if I'm out and about, I prefer the air outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Problem is the ECO isn't off. It still uses the AC. Sometimes I don't want AC air, at all. Maybe, I'm just more sensitive to it, but if I'm out and about, I prefer the air outside.
    Wind down a window
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    Sometimes I don't want AC air, at all. Maybe, I'm just more sensitive to it, but if I'm out and about, I prefer the air outside.
    I can see the positives and negatives of both, when in my parents cars (306 XT & XSi) I hate the climate. Where as my parents love it, always whinging if I turn the system off (as much as you can).

    Windows open rain, hail (hopefully not), winter or summer.

    Its the same in my car I can have the heater going nuts in winter (my girlfriend has a great fear of cold ) my window is still down a small amount to get some fresh air to me. As the A/C in my car needs a regas I just don't bother during summer.

    Jono
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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Wind down a window
    When I'm on a highway, I'm not going to wind down a window. I do wind my windows down quite a bit. Nothing was worse than driving to Adelaide and not being able wind down my windows because of the new tints!

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    I still haven't figured out the aircon on the 505 GTi - I think it might be broken. The other morning going to work it was -8C outside and the aircon was blowing cold no matter which way I put the ECO switch. Mind you it takes many kilometres before the temperature gauge gets beyond the blue and onto the gauge itself. That afternoon it was fine again and blowing warm.

    No buttons or dials in the 505, it's a slider which is pretty easy to use. Like most of you though I tend to just pick a temperature and leave it there.
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    The one thing about the CC in the 306 is that it runs on a thermostat. The air doesn't blow constantly one temp, instead, it blows out bloody hot then cold again with the timing of this dictated by where you have set the temp dial. It's just something I have to get used to I guess. I do like having windows down though, prefer it to AC.
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    This is a bugbear of mine.
    You can ram climate control up your khyber. I hate it. It doesn't give me the air temp I want where I want, and it's contrary and uncontrollable.
    It blows hot then warm then cold, and shifts to the feet or screen or whatever. You don't get minor amounts of heating, you just get flat out heating for shorter periods.

    I just like plain old sliding vent/heater controls, where you set it to blow any particular temp constantly.... we all know how non CC works..... but this is what I prefer. I like say 20 degree air blowing at my face, not 32 degree air attempting to maintain a comfy 20 cabin temperature.

    At least in BMW's you can still get heat at your feet and cool air at your face. This is a good thing. But damn it when I was trying to fix the malfunctioning bits on the 405 climate control the overcomplicatedness of it all was what got me cross. Very complex and very costly operation of a very simple control.
    Bah humbug.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawood
    I still haven't figured out the aircon on the 505 GTi - I think it might be broken. The other morning going to work it was -8C outside and the aircon was blowing cold no matter which way I put the ECO switch. Mind you it takes many kilometres before the temperature gauge gets beyond the blue and onto the gauge itself. That afternoon it was fine again and blowing warm.

    No buttons or dials in the 505, it's a slider which is pretty easy to use. Like most of you though I tend to just pick a temperature and leave it there.
    I betcha there is no thermastat in your motor, if you install one your heater will work much sooner and the car probably won't run as hot in summer.

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    I prefer the simplicity of rotating a dial for the Climate Control on my Xsara, than punching buttons to get the right temp via a digital read-out. Not only is it awkward whilst driving, but many manufactuers place the controls too low on the centre console. I find the Air-cond totally inadequate once temp is over 30 degrees. Xsara's cabin is a hot place to be in summer I find the Auto setting frustrating and slow to respond. It's only thing I hate about an otherwise well designed vehicle.

    Cheers Pete

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    A lot of European cars have inadequate cooling, for obvious reasons.
    Bruce

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    i find the one the RSC to be fine, just set the temp to auto and let it do the rest, if you hit recycle, the a/c will come on, if not it'll kick in only when necessary.

    it also controls which vents the air should come from. furthermore, this means no fogging of the interior windows as it's all managed with temperature readings inside and out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Problem is the ECO isn't off. It still uses the AC. Sometimes I don't want AC air, at all. Maybe, I'm just more sensitive to it, but if I'm out and about, I prefer the air outside.
    ECO is wank speak for off in these cars. In some cars there are two modes of A/C, full/standard/on or ECO, then off. For these PSA cars - ECO = OFF. It's really obvious on a humid summer day - watch all the condensation form too.

    Watch the tachometer next time you go from A/C to ECO.

    I think Climate Control is a great feature when you're dealing with a good system. The current PSA systems are okay, nothing special. I just leave it within a certain range -

    18 to 20 on a day when you want cooler air in the cabin, but don't need A/C.

    20 to 21 (or perhaps up to 22 at night) when A/C is activated - normally 20.5 seems about right with A/C.

    The PSA system isn't the smartest at times. Also, if you go over some bumps, you can find the car goes from cold air to hot air for 10 seconds. The good features are that in windscreen mode (Peugeot calls it "Automatic Visibility Program" in the manual ) it will engage A/C and turn off recirc.

    I rarely use manual mode, but one thing I don't like about it, like many other digital systems is you have to cycle through the various combinations of outlets - wasting potentially up to 10 seconds as you try to drive, it's not that safe trying to change the settings whilst driving. Naturally, our friend Volvo has a solution - you just press a button to direct the air to the desired area of the body. Eg foot - goes to the foot, want foot and face - press both buttons. Obviously the bottom button is for the foot - no need to look at the buttons, works by feel. By doing such a system - every possible air vent permutation is possible.

    Another good thing in the good systems - automatic recirc. When that smoky Mitsubishi comes around - recirc automatically

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    rek
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    Most cars' climate control systems are a technological wank whose primary benefit is that they look high-tech, fancy and expensive (excellent for brochures and dealer showrooms!) Don't get me started on those ones that purport to be able to make one side of the car 0.5 degrees warmer than the other etc.

    Here's some food for thought: who here has digital temperature readouts and +/- switches on their hot water showers? Anybody? And who has their wardrobe arranged in piles of clothing to wear for each day's temperature, to 0.5 degree accuracy? Can anyone even tell if the weather people got the forecast wrong by one or two degrees? ... Exactly! So why do we kid ourselves that we need this level of fine-grained control in the car? The accuracy (if it even exists) won't be noticed anyway.. and the "one temperature fits all" idea is out the window if we happen to be wearing heavier clothing the next day. We react to temperature with "just right" and situation-specific, often non-linear levels of "too hot" and "too cold", not 22.30476 C, +/- 0.38

    The three dial arrangement in the 306 is great. On the go, dials are much easier to use than push-buttons and digital displays for this sort of thing; much like dial volume controls, and analog speedos/tachos. The system is simple and just makes sense.

    It doesn't NEED to be any more complicated than that, but you still see climate control panels in cars that look like they'd be more appropriate in the cockpit of a Space Shuttle.

    The old sliding lever type deals are dodgy though as they have little fluidity in movement, and always seem to get brittle, break, get stuck, or have the little knob bits fall off when they start to get old.

    As for the 306 system, I especially like how the fan will only blow if the engine temperature is capable of supplying air at the heat level you've selected (I never use the "auto" setting, it's useless.) Great for cold mornings when the last thing you need is a blast of icy air. Automatic recirc when the AC is switched on is good too. However I'd like it to have more vent control options though. Things like front demister + face vents, and hot feet/cold face, etc. EDIT: that Volvo vent selector thing that Justin mentioned is how it SHOULD be done.

    Sorry for the rant, but excessive switches, menus and displays on things that should be simple is something that really bugs me. You should see me using some of the horror mobile phones that are out (or rather hear me, while its rapid transit across the room is being considered for its imminent future..)
    Last edited by rek; 31st July 2004 at 11:42 AM.
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    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
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    Did all 306's come with climate control- even the 3 door style and the other 3 door models before the facelift? On the 306 is there a external temprature gague in the cabin somewhere, the only time ive sat in a 306 is when the battery was reconnected so everything was flashing and nothing was set correctly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rek
    Here's some food for thought: who here has digital temperature readouts and +/- switches on their hot water showers? Anybody?
    They great .. only heats the water to the temp you want .. no overheating and mixing in cold too compensate ... after you've used one you won't go back.

    OK figures and a great reference point ... that's why people use them, it's much easier to remember you like the car at 21 degrees* and not the dial 5/7th around to the left. * it mightn't actually be 21 degrees, but it a reference none the less.

    If the PSA system was so lousy you'd think the 8+ million 206/307/406/607/Xara etc cars out there that they would have changed it by now ???? (don't know the actualy figures and Yes I know base model 206's have dials) ...

    So I've proposed a simple speedo system for all those people who can't deal with numbers and prefer relative positions on a dial .... as attached

    - XTC206 -
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Climate Control Air Con vs "Normal" Air Con-speedo4dummies.jpg  
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    rek
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    They great .. only heats the water to the temp you want .. no overheating and mixing in cold too compensate ... after you've used one you won't go back.
    lol, I somehow knew you'd pick up on that one But what do you do when you finish off the shower colder at the end*? Push the temp level buttons randomly until you get to what you want? At least I know a 1/8th or so turn of the tap will do the trick nice and quickly, and it's the same for every other shower I'd be using.

    * -- you know that nasty feeling you sometimes get after a nice hot shower, almost as if you're sweating.. and no matter how much you try and towel-dry, your skin still feels clammy? Finishing off your shower with water below your skin temperature solves that. Maybe we can put an infrared skin temperature sensor on that electronic shower head, and have another button to activate this option... we can call this CSP (Clamminess Stability Program) and have a little yellow light in the corner that flashes madly when it's adjusting the water temperature for this

    OK figures and a great reference point ... that's why people use them, it's much easier to remember you like the car at 21 degrees* and not the dial 5/7th around to the left. * it mightn't actually be 21 degrees, but it a reference none the less.
    An inaccurate reference point is called a "broken test instrument"

    A bodgy "21.0 degrees" reference display is no better than "oh about 5/7ths across the dial", in fact it's worse: it's giving the facade of objective accuracy and repeatibility for something that is actually subjective and fickle (comfort). A temperature that seems comfortable in light clothing might be uncomfortably hot in heavy pants and a sweater. Or if the sun is bright and shining, any heated air at all might be unwelcome.

    In any case dials are better. Nyah.

    simple dial: a quick flick of the dial a couple of notches should do it
    push buttons: hmm I'm wearing a jumper, now it's a little hot in here compared to yesterday, 21 won't do, now what degrees setting do I like when wearing heavy clothing, was it 17? *clik*clik*clik*clik*clik*clik*clik*clik* ... actually, maybe it was 19, 17 sounds like it could be too cold. *clik*clik*clik*clik* no wait ...

    The latter is just as rediculous as pouring that last minute 20ml splash of extra milk into your cereal in the morning, because you might be worried that what's already in the bowl "might not be enough" (admit it, we all do this sometimes )

    We really need a cereal bowl with integrated weight sensor, which is wirelessly attached to a special pouring flask attached to the top of the milk bottle, to communicate the scientifically perfect amount of milk it should meter out for the cereal. (have yet to think of a three letter acronym for this so I'll call it "CerealTronic")

    If the PSA system was so lousy you'd think the 8+ million 206/307/406/607/Xara etc cars out there that they would have changed it by now ???? (don't know the actualy figures and Yes I know base model 206's have dials) ...
    Probably not the best example .. after all, they're still using COM2000 stalks and propagation-delay-marred electrics Top marks on the new 206-180 pedal placement though, it only took them 5 or 6 years

    Maybe a better example is the original 7-series iDrive..

    Then again most people probably aren't dead bored on a Saturday morning to think about these sorts of things and be difficult

    So I've proposed a simple speedo system for all those people who can't deal with numbers and prefer relative positions on a dial .... as attached
    Between this, the showerhead with CSP (tm), and the CerealTronic bowl, we could be instant millionaires Either that or get shuffled to the back page of a Sharper Image catalogue.

    Actually, being a Victorian I'd quite like a speedo that measures +/- 0.000001 km/h with an exact push button speed control ... the government is pretty much expecting us to behave like we have one
    Last edited by rek; 31st July 2004 at 02:40 PM.
    Peter
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