drive days VS aussiefrogs
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Default drive days VS aussiefrogs

    hello fellow frogettes

    I just wanted to get some sort of clarificaiton on drive days & AF.It's well known that we all like to go for a drive beit under the AF banner or not, but for obvious reason due to AF rules & regs drive days cannot be organised on AF, which is fair enough & im not trying to dispute this .

    The point of this is to get some sort of clear line on what's allowed & what's not. If you look at the social section of AF, there has been a bit of a Drive day virus going on, im just confused as to what the definition of "organising a drive or meet" really is or more importantly, 'what's allowed' .

    Drive days are a very inviting means of being introduced to AF life outside the forum & for new members this is the most 'un-intimidating' means of being initiated into the AF circle of friends. So how can these new members get the chance to come for a drive with other members on drive days (whilst having no association with af)?? Of the top of my head, im thinking some sort of mailing list.

    At the moment it seems that the ruling has loopholes & there is no fine line. Maybe something can be done about this, im not having a go at anyone just trying to assist the system with the best interests of the the forum thats all, personally i think AF's stance on cruise's is justified, just not clear cut.

    what do you all think ?

    Happy days ladies

    Asanka-out


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    Last edited by purrr-geot; 24th July 2004 at 03:57 PM. Reason: had to put some spaces n sh*t

  2. #2
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    Asanka,

    I assume you're posting in reference to the thread about a drive day in Sydney this weekend at http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sho...170#post130170 ?

    As far as the moderators and admins are concerned, drive days are not to be organised on the forum either in public or via PM. If a group of friends (who may have happened to have met via Aussiefrogs originally) decide to go on a drive and organise it privately, between themselves, there's not much that we can do about that. As such, we can't prevent people from posting photos or discussing their journey after the event.

    The information at the thread I keep linking to Aussiefrogs Social Events - Please read before you post

    states clearly that Aussiefrogs is a social meeting place only.

    Obviously, paid organised events such as Sydney's Obseravtion Run a few months ago are difference, as insurance and liabilities were taken care of by a third party.

    Derek

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    so are you saying that events such as the brisbane kart day that are trying to be organized here shouldn't be posted on AF.. also there maybe a bit of a misconsception here but on the main page of the forum the subtitle for social events and meets is
    Organise upcoming social events & meetings
    ... i also think it would be fine if it was stated in the post that it isn't an Aussie Frogs event
    Last edited by orestes; 24th July 2004 at 04:25 PM.

  4. #4
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    Go kart days are different to drive days aren't they? Participants make their own way there, pay their money, sign a waiver and go racing on a track.

    The issue is to do with liability - Aussiefrogs isn't a club or organisation of any sort, so has no public liability insurance (nor can it get any, as it isn't a club or organisation). This is where your state-based car clubs come in.

    In NSW and WA, if a bunch of Peugeot car drivers want to go on a run somewhere, it is raised at a club meeting (PCCNSW or PCCWA), published in the car club's magazine, a route is organised and it goes from there.

    This provides insurance for the organisers, makes sure the people who want to be there really do want to be there (they have to be a financial paid member of the club, or join on the day) and do the right thing. It also provides the financial support, new model cars and younger members that car clubs need and want.

    If things are done this way, everyone wins when you think about it.

    Derek

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    I suppose there is nothing to stop a group of friends or like minded drivers organising to meet one another socially at some location or locations and posting notice on the board is just like ringing around on the telephone, providing that everyone understands that there is no actual sponsorship or acceptance of liability by the person suggesting a nice place to meet.

    Likewise Aussie Frogs does not accept any liability any more than the telephone company would!

    If friends choose to meet, they and they alone hold responsibility for their own actions/presence, and that is just as it should be!!

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    If friends choose to meet, they and they alone hold responsibility for their own actions/presence, and that is just as it should be!!
    Ken
    Until a lawyer gets hold of it .. I for one don't want to be the subject of a test case .

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    Guys, with all due respects, read this, keep your hands off "it" and get on with life!!

    Aussiefrogs Social Events - Please read before you post

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Guys, with all due respects, read this, keep your hands off "it" and get on with life!!

    Aussiefrogs Social Events - Please read before you post

    Alan S
    so we can organize events, drive days, track days, kart days etc here as long as there not quoted as being associated with aussie frogs ???

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    What I have noticed is that you can organise to meet up in a car park for a BBQ, a kick of the footy, ride of a bike...whatever, but not for a drive. Am I correct at assuming this??
    The AWARD WINNING 1998 Blaze Yellow 306 GTi6


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    Yeah

    As far as I am aware, Australia is still a free country and you do have the right to associate with other like minded people for any lawful purpose!

    And why be frightened of lawyers, in my experience they run a mile when you take them on simple two dimensional people! Tell them nothing and take them no-where!!

    Ken

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If I get the time later I'll try & find the other long winded drawn out discussions on these "drives."
    I understand the reasoning behind the disclaiming of them & it's done for good reason; let's leave it at that, but as far as I'm concerned, if you "communicate" with someone be it 'net, phone, 'e-mail or on an open forum, and as a result of this communication it's decided to do something, anything, a drive, a race a duck shoot, parachute jumping or whatever, and then if you are stupid enough to then go out and put yourself under a truck, over a cliff, round a tree or into the ocean can you really hold Telstra liable because they supplied the means of communication?
    Let's take it to the ultimate in stupidity; you use the bosses Internet connection which is connected to a phone line who is with a carrier who uses Telstra's lines; who's responsible? The Boss? The company? The telephone service providor? Telstra? The person who made the appointment to meet? the ISP or Bill Gates because they use Microsoft software? You know who? YOU for being a bloody idiot!!
    Think that's stupid? Then read some of the things that have been said regarding liability if someone mentions it on these forums. They are actually quite sensible & realistic by comparison!!
    NOW: Let's take THESE scenarios.

    (a) A member posts that a meeting is planned at a pub whereupon they will drive to another for a barbeque lunch and then go for a drive to somewhere before heading home.

    (b) gibgib/greenblood/brad and yours truly post a (hypothetical) message:

    "The Aussiefrogs drive to the Blue Mountains is being planned for the second weekend in January. Anyone wishing to be involved please contact one of the organisers, gibgib, GreenBlood or Brad by no later than September 1st so that arrangements can be made for overnight accomodation and meals.
    All entrantrants have to be registered members of Aussiefrogs. We intend having 2 groups; one from South Australia and one from Victoria, all meeting at Shane's place before driving North.
    Queenslanders and northern New South Welshmen will meet at Tamworth on the same day as the others meet at Shanes with the intention of both groups meeting up with the Vics/Croweaters, Cane Toads and our NSW bretheran at Canberra for an overnight stop before heading up the Mountains. Scenic trips and other events will be organised for the period of time we are there."


    Now; has anyone spotted the difference?
    One is a group of members getting together to do whatever they want to do; it's their business not aussiefrogs.

    The second is an event organised by Aussiefrogs.

    In the first instance, they can run, jump, get into fights, get shot, rob banks,get pregnant, do what they like....it has absolutely bloody NOTHING to do with Aussiefrogs.

    The second scenario, Aussiefrogs are into it up to their necks.

    So effectively and from a personal point of view, I can & never have seen the problem with people using the forum as a means of communication to get together for social activities with people they have met with similar interests, French cars, to do whatever they find enjoyable.
    If however, persons directly involved with the running of the board such as Admins and mods. strat to organise events under the Aussiefrogs banner, then that's a whole new ball game and in the case of some pedantic asshole wanting to stir trouble could lead to complications.

    Personally I think too many are jumping at shadows of things that don't exist and in the process destroying a comaradarie amongst members which has been unique in the history of French car ownership in Australia.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    [QUOTE=Alan S] In the first instance, they can run, jump, get into fights, get shot, rob banks,get pregnant, do what they like....it has absolutely bloody NOTHING to do with Aussiefrogs.[QUOTE]

    ...but boy, does it sound like FUN!

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Alan, I know your stance on this has never changed, however, it appears to conflict with some of the things that Derek and Brad say. If Derek or Brad could confirm that what you have said is the stance by AF, then that'd be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Alan, I know your stance on this has never changed, however, it appears to conflict with some of the things that Derek and Brad say. If Derek or Brad could confirm that what you have said is the stance by AF, then that'd be great.
    this is exactly what im trying to gt at... not trying to stir up a kettle of fish but i think we need to know exactly what the stance of AF is

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    I agree with Alan, but it doesn't change the fact that in the past, on drives organised via this forum, we have seen some truly embarrasing driving behaviour......some resulting in cars ending up where they shouldn't be.

    I expect this 'no drive' thing to be lifted in due time but also respect the moderator teams position, which is undoubtably to ensure the safety of other forum users.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Ok, i get what everyone is saying, but its the same things i've heard over & over again. As i said, im not disputing AF & its admin's decision of not allowing drives to organised on AF, i think this is more than fair given the legal implications of it all.

    However there just seems to be a bit of a grey area in the whole thing. For example we aren't allowed to organise a drive yet we are allowed to post details of where a drive will begin. I think for the benefit of current & future users of this great forum a distinction between the two MUST BE defined & ruled accordingly.


    Keep the peace ladies
    asanka-out

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    Best to leave things as is - Aussie Frogs does not organise anything other than to provide a Forum where like minded people can post most things that we like to do as individuals (with our cars that is) moderation is simply to prevent the forum being dragged down by intemperate or ill considered posts.

    The more you try to eliminate so called "grey areas" the more you help to provide grist for idiots to shift reponsibility and liability when the ball is solidly in their court.

    Obviously each individual can decide for themselves to attend or not to attend any meeting and of course to leave that venue if it is not to their liking.

    Attempts to define and regulate something that you do not take any responsibility for, just helps manipulators of the legal system and insurance companies who want to dodge their reponsibilities (or shift their legal responsibility to others)

    Let sleeping dogs lie!!

    Ken

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Best to leave things as is - Aussie Frogs does not organise anything other than to provide a Forum where like minded people can post most things that we like to do as individuals (with our cars that is) moderation is simply to prevent the forum being dragged down by intemperate or ill considered posts.

    The more you try to eliminate so called "grey areas" the more you help to provide grist for idiots to shift reponsibility and liability when the ball is solidly in their court.

    Obviously each individual can decide for themselves to attend or not to attend any meeting and of course to leave that venue if it is not to their liking.

    Attempts to define and regulate something that you do not take any responsibility for, just helps manipulators of the legal system and insurance companies who want to dodge their reponsibilities (or shift their legal responsibility to others)

    Let sleeping dogs lie!!

    Ken

    Amen Ken........Amen.............


    Alan S
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    But "HELLO!" the ambiguity here is driving me nuts!!

    I would love to meet up to go for a drive or check out someone else's car. However, from what I can see, I can write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow, come along for a chat!" but NOT write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow , come along for a drive."

    The key word that I can see is "DRIVE". If the word "DRIVE" isn't mentioned it is okay.


    I'm just wondering why people can meet up for steak/bike rides/show days etc but not drives.
    The AWARD WINNING 1998 Blaze Yellow 306 GTi6


    ......and a Series 3 205GTi on the side.



    "I enjoy telling people what to do, because I am an arrogant rock star. That's what I do. That's my job." Gene Simmons, ROCK SCHOOL.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    But "HELLO!" the ambiguity here is driving me nuts!!

    I would love to meet up to go for a drive or check out someone else's car. However, from what I can see, I can write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow, come along for a chat!" but NOT write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow , come along for a drive."

    The key word that I can see is "DRIVE". If the word "DRIVE" isn't mentioned it is okay.


    I'm just wondering why people can meet up for steak/bike rides/show days etc but not drives.
    There is no ambiguity; how can there be?

    If it is not an event sanctioned by or organised by "Aussiefrogs" or purported to be by any member and will not be by the Administration, you're free to drive, dive, rape, pilliage, drink, die, commit adultery, covet they neighbours ass (if you're that way inclined) or do whatever you want just so long as if you get into any kind of strife whatsoever, you are not labouring under the false apprehension that what you have done is in any way connected to aussiefrogs, it's moderators, super mods, administrators or owners....in other words, baby, you're all on your own.................NOW; still want to say that's ambiguous???
    Is there any way I can make it any plainer???


    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    But "HELLO!" the ambiguity here is driving me nuts!!

    I would love to meet up to go for a drive or check out someone else's car. However, from what I can see, I can write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow, come along for a chat!" but NOT write; "Rightio chaps, I'm gonna be at the car park up the road tomorrow , come along for a drive."

    The key word that I can see is "DRIVE". If the word "DRIVE" isn't mentioned it is okay.


    I'm just wondering why people can meet up for steak/bike rides/show days etc but not drives.

    i can see where your'e coming from stone free, but i can also see where alan s and ken feugo are coming from i meen if you say we're all going for a drive from here to wherever as if its being organized on here and as part of the aussie frogs community and then somone has an acident (touch wood) whats to say that the right person couldn't foot the blame on AF... i think on the other hand and this may be restating but after reading peoples opinions i think it holds true that as long as you don't say that it is an aussie frogs event and its just a bunch of people that are going out to have some fun then it would be fine if you advertised it anywhere, wether its called a drive day or not... and restating what people have said here again but in the end you can't blame the people that were used for the advertising.... i meen if you sent out a mass e-mail you couldn't blame telstra if you had an acident... likewise unless you say that it is aussie frogs event and it has been admited by ...the owner or significant (sp?) party (i.e administrators/moderators)..... if you would like to put it that way... of aussie frogs that it is an event held under the aussie frogs banner then you should and everyone else should be fine from any idiots that may spoil the day

    this is just my interpretation of it...
    Last edited by orestes; 25th July 2004 at 09:16 PM.

  22. #22
    XTC
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    Can't belive we don't have lawyers chipping in here .. well I can believe it cause if they DID give advise (even friendly advise) they will be held accountable for it (to the level of their profession) sux hey. Cause the big question is ... IS AF an intentity .. sure it has owners and moderators (and members) but can a bit of cyberspace be a legal entitiy. Yes you pay for a domain name .. pay for cyberspace but is it an organisation ... or people shareholders ? I find this quite an interesting question ...

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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    Hey hey hey, don't give yerselves a freekin hernia! Okay, I'm just going to leave this well alone.



    If anyone wants my e-mail address to organise to catch up somewhere then PM me.
    The AWARD WINNING 1998 Blaze Yellow 306 GTi6


    ......and a Series 3 205GTi on the side.



    "I enjoy telling people what to do, because I am an arrogant rock star. That's what I do. That's my job." Gene Simmons, ROCK SCHOOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Can't belive we don't have lawyers chipping in here .. well I can believe it cause if they DID give advise (even friendly advise) they will be held accountable for it (to the level of their profession) sux hey. Cause the big question is ... IS AF an intentity .. sure it has owners and moderators (and members) but can a bit of cyberspace be a legal entitiy. Yes you pay for a domain name .. pay for cyberspace but is it an organisation ... or people shareholders ? I find this quite an interesting question ...

    - XTC206 -
    i wonder if anybody on here is game to admit there a lawyer and add there with roughly 2500 members im sure we've got at least one lawyer or somone who has studied some form of law or justice in a degree/diploma they've done
    Last edited by orestes; 25th July 2004 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Can't belive we don't have lawyers chipping in here .. well I can believe it cause if they DID give advise (even friendly advise) they will be held accountable for it (to the level of their profession) sux hey. Cause the big question is ... IS AF an intentity .. sure it has owners and moderators (and members) but can a bit of cyberspace be a legal entitiy. Yes you pay for a domain name .. pay for cyberspace but is it an organisation ... or people shareholders ? I find this quite an interesting question ...

    - XTC206 -
    I'm about to log off and watch Billy Connolly in "The Man who sued God."

    Methinks too many may have already seen it; nite, nite.


    Alan S
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