mmm ... corners.
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    XTC
    XTC is offline
    VIC: a fine driving state XTC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Location Location Location
    Posts
    8,566

    Default mmm ... corners.

    While nothing beats practice and actually doing it (and it varies from car to car 4WD, FWD, RWD etc etc) .... has anyone seen a web site that provides guidelines for taking corners (all different types). Appropriate entry angles, trajectory, when to brake, when to accelerate. The documented theory?

    Advertisement


    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  2. #2
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,355

    Default

    There were a few articles on this site (http://www.turnfast.com/), but the server is down unfortunately. Had various tips on track driving (eg. shifting, steering, braking, etc).

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  3. #3
    nJm
    nJm is offline
    Guru nJm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,930

    Default

    Take a look at the 'School' section in Gran Turismo 4: Prologue for PS2. Teaches you all about optimal cornering techniques, braking, accelerating, and overtaking on both the inside and outside.

    The general rule though seems to be slow down for corners and accelerate hard out of them. Mind you I'm sure Justin will disagree with that

    As you said, it comes down to the cars and roads you are using, but there is definately 'theory' to follow.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,516
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  5. #5
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    The general rule though seems to be slow down for corners and accelerate hard out of them. Mind you I'm sure Justin will disagree with that
    People always wondered why I seem to have no brake wear...

    Thanks for the links Voytek.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    People always wondered why I seem to have no brake wear...

    Thanks for the links Voytek.

    you have been watching too much of PB racing a 405
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Pug-a-lug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    172

    Default

    In my experience, the best way to understand racing lines and cornering techniques requires a basic understanding of tyre-forces, slip angle and vehicle dynamics.

    This can all be summarised in the concept of the 'traction circle'.

    A great reference is this :

    Carol Smith : "Tune to win".

    I'd post a line on Amazon.com but their site seems to be down at the moment

  8. #8
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    IMHO the trick to cornering fast is to late apex corners.

    So many people turn in to the apex too early for a corner and compromise there exit speed.

    They don't realise they're even doing it.

    This was even evident during the AF Go Kart days......

    Those who attended would probably admit to seeing others do this.....

    It is NOT a fast (or road safe) way to drive.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,239

    Default

    Late braking on the outside of the corner and a flatest line as possible through the apex with max throttle at the apex (or as much as you can give it without spinning your wheels if you have a powerful car) is the fastest way through a corner if you are uner pressure.

    Some people feel you need to get on the throttle prior to the apex and if this mens not going as deep into the corner and taking a smother, less flat line, then so be it, but this also means slower entry speed but possibly a slightly fast exit speed.

    I say just make up your own mind, because every corner is different, for example some hairpins have a late apex, you need to go deep in these and turn in a bit later if you want the ultimate trejectory around the corner, some hairpins have an early apex, whilst both being a very similar shape, I find most hairpins are all different, same goes for any corner, no corner on any track is the same in terms of exactly where the apex should be, you just have to go for a few warmup laps and find those lines
    "Do my eyes deceive me, or is Senna's Lotus sounding rough ?" - Murray Walker
    206XR 1.6ltr - SOLD
    BMW E36 325i Coupe
    73 Porsche 911RS

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Pug-a-lug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    172

    Default

    Here is that link to that book I mentioned :

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...747195-9140963

    A good contrast in driving styles and the effect it has on a car's balance and set-up can be found in Christopher Hilton's biography of Alain Prost. He interivews Keke Rosberg and John Barnard (then McLaren chief designer) about the problems Rosberg had in eliminating understeer from the '86 McLaren. The main problem was that Barnard fundamentally disagreed with Rosberg's driving style. Rosberg was slower than Prost all year, but when he was able to set the car up to his liking (Hockenhiem where he was on pole, and Adelaide where he was leading until tyre failure) he blew everyone into the weeds.

    Which shows that there are many ways to skin a cat...

    .. and more than one way to get a car around a circuit.

  11. #11
    XTC
    XTC is offline
    VIC: a fine driving state XTC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Location Location Location
    Posts
    8,566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug-a-lug
    In my experience, the best way to understand racing lines and cornering techniques requires a basic understanding of tyre-forces, slip angle and vehicle dynamics.
    Welcome to Pug-A-Lug. Nice wedding cars BTW.

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  12. #12
    nJm
    nJm is offline
    Guru nJm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,930

    Default

    I'd have to agree with the late turning principal. From my very limited experience going into a corner fast and braking and turning a little late is a fast method. Please tell me if I'm doing this wrong, but what I do in my 505 (so RWD car) is:

    Go into a corner faster than some might think is best. Double declutch down a gear (to have the revs hovering around the 4000rpm mark). This slows you down (along with a little late braking) but also gives you maximum torque/power. Just as you hit the apex of the corner you accelerate as hard as possible. This makes the car oversteer just slightly, tightening your line and letting you get a good exit speed.

    If you don't select a lower gear before entering the corner the car will flop about and understeer terribly. That's why I think it is essential everyone learns to drive a manual car as you tend not to learn such things in an auto.

    I haven't really mastered driving a FWD car hard, although I guess going on what I have done when driving Justin's 307 or the occaisional Volvo is to turn in a little late but lift off to get the tail out slightly. Really need more practice at that though as my natural instinct is to accelerate when the car starts to understeer.

    So yeah, from my experience turning late has the best results. But that is on the road in fairly underpowered cars. I'm sure on a track the earlier posts are much more relevant.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Pug-a-lug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Welcome to Pug-A-Lug. Nice wedding cars BTW.

    - XTC206 -
    Cheers mate!

    Mine is one the right, which I bought second-hand in 1998. Dad's is on the left, which he bought brand new in 1991. I was never insured to drive it, and I was only allowed to take it out once or twice a year, but it sure made a big impression on me....

    ...so the moment I started my first 'real' job, I saved up about bought one for myself

    Back on topic, I've personally found that turning-in whilst-still-braking has a huge effect of front-end grip... as well as the attitude of the car into the initial part of the turn.

    Once you understand the traction circle... you will realise that you must balance the cars lateral acceleration (via steering input) with its longitudinal acceleration (via throttle/braking). So as you approach a corner, you apply maximum braking force... but as you gradually reduce the amount of braking force (and therefore longitudinal acceleration) you can start to turn in with a small amount of steering input (thus creating lateral acceleration).

    About 1/2 - way to the apex, you should still be applying some brake... although the longitudinal acceleration is now diminishing.. whilst you are increasing steering angle to create more lateral acceleration. But if you apply too much steering angle (and creating a large slip angle) whilst also applying too much braking... then the tyres will either slide or being to lock-up. So a balance between increasing your steering angle whilst simultaneously decreasing your braking force is required.

    At the apex, you should be applying maximum lateral acceleration.

    On the exit to the corner, it is all about balancing your steering input with your throttle input. If you apply too much throttle whilst you are turning (ie the tyres have some significant slip angle) - naturally the tyres will begin to exceed their tractive capacity and will start to slide.

    So the exit of the corner is the reverse to the entry situation. You are reducing your steering angle whilst simultaneously increasing your throttle... and thus your longitudinal acceleration.

    So ideally, you have reached the end of the corner with zero steering angle (and therefore slip angle), the cars attitude pointing straight ahead and your foot firmly planted on the throttle.

    At least, that's the theory. Throw in throttle response/turbo-lag/left-foot-braking/gravel/snow and many other real-world problems and the problem becomes more complicated.

    But you can probably summarise the above in a few simple sentences :

    A tyre has a certain amount of tractive force, which is proportional to the weight applied to it by the suspension. This force can either be used to brake the car, turn the car, or accelerate the car forward... or a combination of them. When cornering, you should be as close as possible to the limit of tractive force as possible... ie 'riding the traction circle.'

    So braking in a straight-line, then turning... then straightening the wheel.. and then applying the the throttle is not using your tyres effectively.

    Most people are well aware of the need to 'get on the throttle early', but the converse of 'getting of the brakes late' isn't as well known.

    If the above makes no sense, check out these other links :

    Formula One website

    Team Associated Remote-Control Cars Website

    Or even better - go and read Carroll Smith's book

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •