Locking 'for sale' threads?
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  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Default Locking 'for sale' threads?

    I can understand why, when some of them go as far as they do off topic... but why not police that rather than locking them?

    The reason being that, all too often, many details that might be important to a potential buyer are omitted. Enabling these questions to be asked on the forum allows all to find out more about the car or the parts...

    Can we rethink this one please?

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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I am presently flying out the door and running late to boot. However as possibly the main instigator of this on the Mods forum, I'd like to be the one to reply to it in detail when I return in about an hour or so.

    Alan S
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  3. #3
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    I'll let Alan explain in detail but basically it works like this.

    The only person who can reply to a thread is the author (or a moderator/admin).

    If a buyer has a question, they should PM/email the seller, who can then reply in the thread.

    Derek

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    OK: Take #2

    As most know by now, it was decided by the moderators that it was in the best interests of the board, buyers and sellers to lock threads on posting a vehicle for Sale.
    Several factors prompted this amongst them the fact that postings often got so far off topic that what started out as a car for sale advert often ended up as a discussion on a totally differents car's performance, features or popularity or whether a film star owned one at some stage; the off topics were too numerous to mention.
    There was often the off handed one liner that did nothing to assist in the selling of the vehicle. Comments such as "If you pay someone $500 they may take it off your hands" and comments along the lines of "Has it got a gold steering wheel or a bag of cash in the boot" the constant "Do you have a picture of it" style of comments.
    All too often buyers advertised a car in good faith whilst comments that were made were done so just for the sake of people seeing their names up in lights as the usually had little or no intention of buying the car; it was academic interest only and whilst on occasions, these comments were of a complimentary nature, all too often they were usually someone claiming the price was too high or on occasions too low and then questioning the sellers honesty in the description.
    It was not unusual in extreme cases for advertisers to contact moderators asking for some assistance in curbing the comments and I feel when people start posting other people's adverts as a comparison of values in any advert particularly when they don't know either car, that is almost amounting to mischief if not an attempt to sabotage a sale innocently or otherwise. Some advertisers indicated that in future they and any friends and associates would not advertise on the net as they felt it was an impediment to them being able to sell or negotiate a fair price.
    It was highlighted during the discussions with other moderators that this problem is not unique to aussiefrogs but in our case, we try to keep the general atmosphere of one of a bunch of mates who get together for a bit of a yarn rather than on other forums, a bunch of yobs foulmouthing each other so as a result it was decided to lock to prevent these "debates" from going on rather than take the drastic action of threatening members with part time or permanent bans if they persisted in getting involved debating sellers cars. This way it's one rule for all (Moderators included.)

    The advantages to this system:

    Since it's recent inception both here and on the Cit Board, there have been a couple of sales and they have all gone smoothly with both buyer and vendor satisfied with the outcomes and with good reason

    It now means that anybody can advertise a French Car on the board and know that their chances of selling it won't be affected by often well meaning people making inapproapriate comments. How long would "the Trading Post" or Carsales.com have survived if they'd have allowed space for public comment every time someone posted an advert? I know that's a bit over the top, but in reality, this is what has been happening.
    If a seller (or in the case of a "Wanted" ad) a buyer, who is a one off poster or rarely on the net or not one for visiting the site all that often, and they advertise a car for sale, how many times have you seen a phone number posted, or an e-mail address and some twit weeks later will post "Please ring me or send me an e-mail" in a response to the advert. Occasionally, we've even had a reply again weeks later "Yes the car is still for sale; call the number above if you're still interested" which to me is unbelieveable as a former sales manager; they may be talking a $20,000 motor car that is apparently $5,000 under market price and nobody wants to spend between 20 cents & $2 on a phone call?? A locked message protects these types from themselves by making it impossible for them to post a message to that effect and as is usually the case, those types are the ones who want you to ring on a mobile in the middle of the day, talk for an hour and a half (as has happened to a friend of mine in Sydney on several occasions) and then promise to get back and organise an inspection ands disappearing off the face of the planet. In other words, it means from now on, only genuine buyers will tend to contact sellers rather than some of the bloody annoying time wasters/advert stuffer upperers we've had to contend with in the past.
    People have often told me how hard it is to sell a French car & the main reason is either the way they try to sell it, other people sticking their noses in and screwing things up or buyers who don't know how to negotiate or are more inclined to hide in the shadows.
    This system should mean that anyone wanting further info on a car simply contacts the seller directly and asks the questions and negotiates prices and deals out of the glare of the public eye which in my opinion is the way it should be done anyway.
    Anyone wanting to get any advice on what a car may be worth on the open market can ask the questions and get responses on the Froggy Forum - General Chit chat and from there if the car is to be advertised, do so then on the Cars for sale & wanted forum.
    As I said at the outset, this has been done in everyone's interests and so far has proven to be successful, after all, my argument always has been; a car advertised for sale is exactly that a "Car advertised for Sale" and not a basis or title of a debate.

    I trust that explains the reasons to everyone's satisfaction.


    Alan S
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Jack Z's Avatar
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    Locking for sale threads is the best thing that ever happenned to the forum... well done to all involved...

  6. #6
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    I've no problem with any of the above either, but I'm just wondering if it is worthwhile leaving it unlocked to the vendor only, as they may want to amend the price sometime later down the track say the car doesn't sell or change it to free take it away??

    Editing the message wouldn't bump it to the top of the pile.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    I've no problem with any of the above either, but I'm just wondering if it is worthwhile leaving it unlocked to the vendor only, as they may want to amend the price sometime later down the track say the car doesn't sell or change it to free take it away??

    Editing the message wouldn't bump it to the top of the pile.

    the author of the thread can reply to as can the admin or mods but that is it
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  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Simon,

    I don't know how all the bells & whistles work, but a vendor I "think" may be able to edit a message as they are the author.
    If not, all they need do is drop a PM to a moderator of that forum to have it done.
    When sold, a notice to that effect or a deletion would also be in order, that way if anyone does a search, it ends up only being live & not dead ads that will surface. At a pinch, a vendor wanting to change an advert could either re-post and/or link to the previous advert for reference if editing wasn't or isn't an option.
    As a bonus, that forum is now almost self moderating.

    Alan S
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  9. #9
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    As a bonus, that forum is now almost self moderating. Alan S
    Good work .. anytime you can make someone redundant and still run efficiently ... your work is done.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    There are two problems I personally have with this...

    One is that if I advertise something, it seemingly will drift off into obscurity as other posts come on other items... and there is nothing I can do to highlight the fact that it's still for sale.

    Or am I missing something here?

    And it relies on PMs. This is a major problem for me, as my PM files are always near full... it doesn't take very long for them to fill right up and then you simply don't get the messages any more.

  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I think this once operating properly will enhance rather than reduce the chances of it being seen.
    The reason being, that if sold items are as has been suggested deleted, anyone looking for something have less to look through and all they see should be live ads not mostly old stale ones. If members don't do the right thing, then we may have to even look at a system of giving ads a "shelf life" and deleting after a certain time. Failing this, the advertiser could post to the effect that:
    "My Citroen GS is still for sale at the price as advertised"

    Full details and photos see:

    GS's for sale - cheap

    and thereby bring it to the top.

    As regards the PMs. If the PM Inbox is full, I've found that a message is sent to the intended recipient and in cases like that, when it has happened to me, I've simply posted a message on the board or alternatively used the e-mail facility also on the board as a means of direct contact.
    I think if you give it a chance you'll find it works 100%. Everyone whose had experience with it so far have given it the thumbs up.
    Incidentally, your PM Inbox isn't full at present as I sent you one yesterday...did you get it OK?

    Alan S
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  12. #12
    Member jumpin_pug's Avatar
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    ...placing rules on every aspect of this forum runs the risk of of alienating users and losing it's fun...one has to think are we really causing that much pain by going off the 'topic?'
    FOR SALE 1995 PEUGEOT 306S16

  13. #13
    Member jumpin_pug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpin_pug
    ...placing rules on every aspect of this forum runs the risk of of alienating users and losing it's fun...one has to think are we really causing that much pain by going off the 'topic?'
    and if i could add to my above comments...knowing full well how vital this forum is to all members (including myself) I put forward that it be more democratic that when decisions are to be made that effect all members of the forum that all members of the forum be given the opporunity to vote on such issues rather than decisions being made by a select minority?

    (This is in no way attempt to be disrespectful to the administrators as I do believe they do a great job)
    FOR SALE 1995 PEUGEOT 306S16

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Jack Z's Avatar
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    People....

    We have individual sites by marque (Cit / Pug / Ren), we have general discussion, we have the toad pond...etc etc.... the For Sale section is just that... it is not a forum for general comments or opinions as to the value or otherwise of someones pride and joy.

    I've seen first hand what happens when a sale posting gets out of control.. it alienates a lot more people than this very sensisble and very effective form of control will ever result in.

    All this change does is make sure people that want to comment or discuss the relative values or merits of any particular item or model do so in the apporpriate forum of which there are many... The sale forum is NOT one of them....

    Even if you wanted to put it to a "vote" from the comments to date you'll find a lot more members for than against....

    Let's give it a chance and not be so quick to criticize a change made in order to address real issues not one that our moedrators have thrust upon us for no reason.....

  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpin_pug
    ...placing rules on every aspect of this forum runs the risk of of alienating users and losing it's fun...one has to think are we really causing that much pain by going off the 'topic?'
    Yes they were, which is why this was done; so as to maintain unity not alienate it or any members as was happening all too often.
    When as a moderator or an admin you are getting messages from posters and other respondents to their advertisements almost pleading for you to intervene due to thoughtless and value less comments being made to the detriment of the person trying to dispose of a vehicle and when comments start being made by irregular posters to longer term members to the effect that "I told you that it was a waste of time posting on this board just so you can get ripped apart by some of these tossers" then it's well past time to take stock of what's going on and to take steps to rectify those problems.
    I suggest you take time to read more closely the reasons I gave for this action and also to take into account that I was the manager of the largest non metropolitan Toyota dealership in Australia long before Jap cars were the flavour of the month as well as controlling sales at a couple of other organisations and I also have sold without problems more than one French car over the years and assisted several others to do the same, so I not only can boast a succesful track record in selling cars, French included, but I also did it professionally and as such can use this experience to assist others which is what I feel I am doing by suggesting and helping to impliment these changes.
    Other forums are up to their ears in problems due to similar reasons that we had, so chances are we will set the trend that the rest will follow as this so far has proven to be successful & I can see no reason for it not to continue to stay that way.


    Alan S
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  16. #16
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, a post can be editted by the author & replied to by the author (& mods/ admins). Other members will get an error message.

    This is all easily reversible.

  17. #17
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    I admit to having made one comment about a certain Cit being recently underpriced on the Cit board. I have never publicly criticised a high price as the market should take care of that easily enough. I don't think that my comment was entirely unreasonable in the circumstances and evidently several others were honest enough and reasonable enough to make similar comments out of concern for the seller. That gives me some confidence that at least that pond is not entirely infested with sharks. As it turned out, the seller in that case appeared to know exactly what he was doing, but I was not aware of any complaint on his part when those comments were deleted. In that case I can only imagine that a potential purchaser was upset at the prospect of losing a clear bargain and possibly having to pay a fairer price for it. In future, any such comments and attempts to be helpful, if made at all, will be made privately as was suggested so ineleganty elsewhere.

    Locking the for sale threads would seem to be the only sensible solution to some of the problems that were mentioned in earlier postings. Helping a possibly naive buyer or seller will have to be done privately in future. I do agree with the intent of this modification.

    However, ... I do find it rather curious that some of the more 'verbose' contributors to both this thread and to the Cit board have had such a sudden conversion to this way of thinking and now appear to be occupying the high moral ground. Overly optimistic sellers will welcome the absence of any claims of " 'e's dreamin'! " I'm sure.

    Now, this storm in a teacup has well and truly blown itself out and I can see no reason for further comment from me!

    David

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    This is how the infidels on the Ausubaru forum handle the same situation

    SIZE=3] L Series Rear Discs/Calipers
    « on: Jun 9th, 2004, 9:12am » Quote
    undefined
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have a spare set of ex RX Turbo rear discs/calipers. The discs are well within spec for future machining and the pads are have plenty of life left.

    Rather than start a discussion of what they may or may not be worth here, could all interested parties PM/email me an offer. I can then discuss with you directly.


    People there tend to respect the sellers wishes. I'm sure that would happen here if sellers made their wishes known. I dunno if it is technically possible but giving the seller the option of locking the thread at the time of posting would be a better way to go.

    Some action was warranted in regard to the for sale section here, but
    don't let's kid ourselves that it is now self regulating - it's basically changed from being a forum to being a classifieds listing.

    I agree with Ray's first post on this topic.
    Last edited by BogMaster; 14th June 2004 at 10:42 PM.
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  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BogMaster
    This is how the infidels on the Ausubaru forum handle the same situation

    SIZE=3] L Series Rear Discs/Calipers
    « on: Jun 9th, 2004, 9:12am » Quote
    undefined
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have a spare set of ex RX Turbo rear discs/calipers. The discs are well within spec for future machining and the pads are have plenty of life left.

    Rather than start a discussion of what they may or may not be worth here, could all interested parties PM/email me an offer. I can then discuss with you directly.


    People there tend to respect the sellers wishes. I'm sure that would happen here if sellers made their wishes known. I dunno if it is technically possible but giving the seller the option of locking the thread at the time of posting would be a better way to go.

    Some action was warranted in regard to the for sale section here, but
    don't let's kid ourselves that it is now self regulating - it's basically changed from being a forum to being a classifieds listing.

    I agree with Ray's first post on this topic.
    Sorry to tell you this Boggy, but that was never actually referred to as a forum.
    Read the header.

    "Cars For Sale/ Wanted (10 Viewing)
    French Cars Only!
    Write as much info as you can & please include your location."
    As opposed to:

    "Froggy Chat! (12 Viewing)
    Please remember, this is a French car forum."
    Or:

    "Technical & Performance (12 Viewing)
    Tuning & modification discussions"



    It was in effect a place to advertise things for sale but in recent times it reached the stage of the ridiculous; just go back through some of the postings of the past few weeks. It wasn't the occasional passing comment, it was beginning to turn into a full on frontal assault on too may postings.
    I'll jolt your memory on a couple;
    The Mi16 that I think it was Jason 20s uncle had for sale.
    The R21 from Victoria.
    Those two stand out as causing too much unnecessary aggro amongst members and as I keep repeating, when the average person puts a car on the market the last thing that's needed is someone who hasn't the slightest intention of buying the car and doesn't know the vehicle, quoting book prices or other peoples adverts for cars they don't know either.
    In all fairness to your suggestion on the Subaru board, who would expect apart from a long time member/visitor on this board to get the comments they did on the two I used as examples above? Hence, why would they know to post that message and given what has happened here in the past, let's face it, they would have ignored it anyway.
    That section of the board has bascically reverted to its original intention; that is a medium through which vehicles and parts can and now hopefully more often will be sold. The ability to discuss on the board was a privelidge that was being abused all too often and so was simply removed; no big deal.
    As has been pointed out, if anyone feels they need advice on assessing the value of their car, then they can ask & debate the issue on a marque specific forum or in Froggy Chat. It often happens this way on boards in the UK and there's never a problem, in fact there's one such debate going on right now due to a guy being given the jiob by his grandparents to sell their car for them. Once a price has been decided, it will then be advertised on the for sale board on that forum; no dramas. Some of those offering advice are also seeing the car in the flesh and again, therein lies a difference to what usually has happened here.
    If someone is genuinely concerned that a car is too dear or too cheap, instead of the public heroics, all they have to do is send a PM; what's the difference apart from the fact they don't get publicity for what they are doing. The only difference between the two is that the recipient is the only one who sees it and you have to type in a title? Apart from that, there's no more effort needed than there is for posting a response.
    Crystal ball appraisals are always frought with danger in the Trade and more so by private people with varying opinions on values.
    Again, we repeat; the other way hasn't worked, let's be honest and admit that and give the new system a go.

    Alan S
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  20. #20
    Member jumpin_pug's Avatar
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    Alan your credentials as a salesperson are noteworthy and no doubt everyone will agree that they place you in a position of superiority in regards to selling vehicles.

    I believe everyone's input on Aussiefrogs is valid and that’s where my criticism stems from not from the validity of decisions being made by administration. Hence I think there is more at issue than whether or not the new changes will sell more vehicles.

    My concern is that legitimate commentary will be suppressed. I concede that stray posts may occasionally taint a forum. Surely one can see that this could effect all forums not just the sales section. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to place more stringent warnings to users as opposed locking forums?

    Another issue I could see the new changes create is uncertainty. Yes the option of sending a seller a PM is available and yes that seller has the option of posting his reply on the advert. However this creates a situation where posts may be made out of context making it difficult for users to compile information.

    Assuming the opposing argument is if you have a question then place it in the relevant forum? But if we do that we’re not really solving the problem, we’re just moving it, a quick fix but not really a solution. Hence the need for a more permanent solution or perhaps a more representative approach.

    My view is that decisions that effect all members of Aussiefrogs should be put to vote to the very members that make up Aussiefrogs. This way administrators can continue to moderate forums and at the same time everyone is involved in the future direction of Aussiefrogs.

    Let the games begin...
    FOR SALE 1995 PEUGEOT 306S16

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    there was a sticky placed up before the threads were locked and yet an advert for a 306 was placed and comment/s still appeared to the detriment of the car for sale

    i rest my case
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    there was a sticky placed up before the threads were locked and yet an advert for a 306 was placed and comment/s still appeared to the detriment of the car for sale

    i rest my case
    Valid point.

    Pugrambo could you please address the other issues I have raised. I believe your input is well respected and I would appreaciate any further comments you had.

    In addition, perhaps a member of the administration could explain how the current decision making processes operate...

    Thanks
    FOR SALE 1995 PEUGEOT 306S16

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    XTC
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    The only time I can see this whole "locking" thing coming unstuck ... is say a car is for sale that some people know has a problem ... (not just a particular car, but a type as well - ever try and sell series 1 laguna V6 with an auto box) .. it maybe legimiate for members with a valid opinion to voice a concern .. but generally this action will protect the seller from smartar$es making comments on a car they know NOTHING about.

    Then again ... if a member wants to buy another members car that is on the board, nothing stopping them asking for an opinion in the forum area .. or will that be canned too

    A rock and a hard place

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  24. #24
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    OK, then let's address these one at a time:


    Quote Originally Posted by jumpin_pug

    I believe everyone's input on Aussiefrogs is valid and that’s where my criticism stems from not from the validity of decisions being made by administration. Hence I think there is more at issue than whether or not the new changes will sell more vehicles.

    The whole object of the exercise I thought was to sell vehicles; and everybody's best interests have to be considered based on experience over a period of time. Everybodys input is considered but it's impossible to be all things to all people. In this case the interests of the seller (based on unpleasant experiences) has to be paramount over any hypothetical problems anyone may enviseage.


    My concern is that legitimate commentary will be suppressed. I concede that stray posts may occasionally taint a forum. Surely one can see that this could effect all forums not just the sales section. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to place more stringent warnings to users as opposed locking forums?

    There is no way in the World that legitimate commentary will be surpressed by using a For Sale board to advertise an item for sale, why should it? Buy a Trading Post & tell the publishers the same thing; they are items for sale not for debate, end of story!
    There is absolutely NO WAY it can affect all forums; how? They are forums, this is a board advertising items for sale so are entirely different in content.
    Stringent warnings; why? They ignore them now and when we have to delete or shift we get called Gestapo amongst other things. Another point also is that we get accused of over moderating at times and stricter warnings would mean constant moderating to keep an eye out that these are being observed. The thankless role of moderator is something we do for the love of it; no pay, no thanks, so why make it more difficult and time consuming than it is?



    Another issue I could see the new changes create is uncertainty. Yes the option of sending a seller a PM is available and yes that seller has the option of posting his reply on the advert. However this creates a situation where posts may be made out of context making it difficult for users to compile information.

    Hey, now hang on a minute; let's get a bit practical for a while. If someone sends you a PM or e-mail, why oh why would you post a response on an open forum? The other point is that in instances where this did happen, it could be to the betternment of the advert. For arguments sake, if the ad didn't contain some pertinent information and it was requested via a PM, I would imagine it would be replied to by the advertiser and the ad edited accordingly. If anyone was so dumb as to go to the trouble of unlocking an ad to post a response instead of simply answering a question via PM I'd be a bit concerned about their motives. The only reason I could see something like that being a problem is if the person making an enquiry was wanting to stay anonymous for some reason, like one I sussed out a couple of years ago who was running 5 different e-mail accounts and 7 different user names and was backyard dealing. Apart from that I could see no reason to imagine that happening.


    Assuming the opposing argument is if you have a question then place it in the relevant forum? But if we do that we’re not really solving the problem, we’re just moving it, a quick fix but not really a solution. Hence the need for a more permanent solution or perhaps a more representative approach.

    The whole idea of this is to bring buyer and seller together, not instigate a useless debate which inevitably happens once people (as opposed to buyers) start asking questions particularly as it concerns vehicles that in most cases the ones asking the useless questions or stirring the problems have never seen in their lives nor do they intend to buy; the two I mentioned previously being two good ones in point. I would doubt the things done to sellers could be repeated if a subject was raised on another forum. As I say, for some reason I seem to get the impression that some think this was a knee jerk reaction; it wasn't. It is something we've been monitoring for a long time


    My view is that decisions that effect all members of Aussiefrogs should be put to vote to the very members that make up Aussiefrogs. This way administrators can continue to moderate forums and at the same time everyone is involved in the future direction of Aussiefrogs.

    You are most welcome to your view and nobody is going to argue your right to express it, but with all due respect, this forum has been going for a few years and has prospered because we have tried to keep its operation both friendly and user friendly and have tried to haed off problems before they got out of hand and those of us who post on this forum every day should have a better understanding of the needs of both the forum and the members; rarely does everybody agree with our actions particularly to change when they happen.
    Keep in mind again, that every point you have raised have been hypothetical problems, none of which have come to reality and may never do. If they were to arise, then would be the time to address them.
    By contrast, ever problem I have mentioned has happened and don't fool yourself and anyone else by referring to them as occasional or small, they have been long standing and happened all too often. It is a practical impossibility to involve everyone in decsions made and if the did, apart from this issue that for some reason you seem to have a keen interest in, what else would you participate in? The reason I ask this is that all too often we see people passionately banging a drum on one issue who rarely get involved in any other debates. I had a guy on a board in the UK who in one night posted over 80 postings and wanted to reorganise the whole forum. He got some of his ways against my better judgement and would be lucky to have controibuted a dozen in the past 2 years.
    You can't run a poll whenever a decsion has to be made and if you did and had a case where you ended up with say 49% for and 51% against, you end up falling foul of almost half the respondents. Then you get the other 90% of the members who were unaware of the poll being done because they weren't on the board at the time wanting to have it re-run because it didn't suit their own agenda; it's impossible to run any forum that way I'm afraid.


    Let the games begin...

    I can find better things to do with my time at 5.00am than have to keep repeating myself..if it's a game, I'm not enjoying it; might as well accept it as it will be trialled and as I keep emphasising, it's being done based on experience and requests form members who have had bad experiences with the old format and will be modified if it is found to be to the detriment of the board or the advertisers.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    The only time I can see this whole "locking" thing coming unstuck ... is say a car is for sale that some people know has a problem ... (not just a particular car, but a type as well - ever try and sell series 1 laguna V6 with an auto box) .. it maybe legimiate for members with a valid opinion to voice a concern .. but generally this action will protect the seller from smartar$es making comments on a car they know NOTHING about.

    Then again ... if a member wants to buy another members car that is on the board, nothing stopping them asking for an opinion in the forum area .. or will that be canned too

    A rock and a hard place

    - XTC206 -
    Let's look at this one then; if a car has a common problem then most likely by the time it's advertised it has either had the problem sorted or anyone unaware of the weaknesses or the model would ask, on the Renault forum what its strong and weak points are you would have to imagine. There is no guarantee that the car for sale has or will get the problem referred to but doubtless if one were to come up some mention would be made on the forum regarding it or at least a posting along the lines of 'has this car had the gearbox modified?' I can see no wrong in that. That hasn't been the issue. The problem has been when someone advertises a car for say $3K and someone who hasn't the foggiest what the car is like posts the first response along the lines of "Fred Jones just sold one of those in apparently good nick for $800 over in Alice Springs"
    Place yourself in the sellers shoes; would you ever recommend anyone to post a car for sale here? The way it was, I surely wouldn't!
    As far as anyone asking for the forums opinion of another members car; I've got no problems there providing it doesn't turn into a brawl and again, I would imagine if anyone had anything derogitory to say about it, I could imagine this happening more off list than on it in most cases as a matter of not causing ill feeling with another member and as a show of courtesy.
    I fail to see what all the fuss about wanting to get their names up in lights is all about. I do as much if not more offlist answering questions on technical and service related issues than I do on it even though my post count may indicate the opposite as many members who contact me on a fairly regular basis would be aware and I still can't see why all this to do based on what might happen when they've seen what already has using the other method.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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