365 Gearbox Oil
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Thread: 365 Gearbox Oil

  1. #1
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    Default 365 Gearbox Oil

    Does anybody know anywhere in Melbourne where i can get EP 80 Gearbox oil for a 365 Gearbox,short of buying a 20 L drum that i would struggle to get through in my lifetime.

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    https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...anual-vmx-80-w

    Unless there is something special about the particular gearbox, one of these Castrol products may suit. Available anywhere including Supercheap as far as I know. They show 5 litre containers, but I have bought 1 litre bottles also.

    Cheers.
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    The reason that i was after EP 80 oil is that is what is specified in the factory workshop manual.
    also none of the local suspects had anything similar that may have been suitable.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




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    2001 Renault Sport Clio Cup 27 of 85
    1973 Alpine Renault A310/4 1600 VE

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    How old is the workshop manual spec?
    In my opinion, as an old school mechanic (qualified) is that EP 80 is a basic generic oil name which has long been updated to modern standards with extra additives to improve the oil. In fact, it (EP additives) was found to be the cause of bronze synchro wear (corrosion) in gearboxes but was good in diffs/hypoid rear axles, EP = Extreme Pressure for the high gear tooth load in hypoid, and better high pressure oils have been developed to supersede EP for gearboxes.
    I think the GL4 and GL5 specs are the later equivalents.
    I have used VMX80 as the recommended product for an older FWD Corolla transaxle, and other transmissions.

    Here is an interesting comment I picked up from Castrol to a query on another forum (reply to a Landcruiser owner about 2014):
    "Early EP additives were active sulphur – and when it got hot this could be quite aggressive to yellow metals so it was always suggested not to use hypoid oils in units with yellow metals. Hypoid oils are normally found in back axles where the gears have greater loads and these normally have a GL-5 rating. Modern additives tend to be less aggressive, but we normally suggest as a safety margin to not use GL-5 rated products in synchromesh units and ones with yellow metals.

    GL-4 EP ratings are classed as “mild” and are what I would suggest would be suitable – we also have some “Universal” products that can cover GL-5/5 ratings using specialised chemistries that again, are not aggressive as the old additives.

    I would suggest Castrol EP 80W-90 would be suitable, or better still – Universal 75W-90 which is a part synthetic and a good all round oil suitable for low and high EP requirements. Being a 75W-90 means low viscosity when cold for easy gear change and the working viscosity is a 90 meaning good lubrication and wear protection.
    "

    Link to Universal 80w-90 from same Castrol webpage in my first post:
    https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...iversal-80w-90

    OK, you may be in possession of some detailed specific reasons for trying to locate a straight EP80 oil, but I believe it is just hiding in full view disguised with new names. My opinion only.

    Maybe a chat to Castrol or Penrite would help.

    Another quote I just found on the Penrite site - covers a lot of ground:
    "The Difference between GL-4 and GL-5 Gear Oils

    Many people are confused about API gear oil classifications. It is a common belief that API GL-5 oils can be used where API GL-4 requirements are specified. Although this is true for “gear oil”, it does not make API GL-5 gear oils satisfactory for all Transmissions especially those that use synchromesh. They may meet the “gear oil” specifications, not the transmission oil specifications. API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronisers.

    Originally, lead additives were used in gear oils and were very good at reducing wear in loaded gear sets. Lead though, is not very friendly to the environment and was phased out in favour of a Phosphorus and Sulphur combination. These gear oils used the Phosphorus and the Sulphur to attach to the gears and create a strong sacrificial layer to be worn off over the Life of the fluid, thus protecting the gear from abrasive wear, high load and Shock loads. Initially, the problem with this type of formulation was that the Sulphur used was active and caused corrosion of yellow and other soft metals used in transmissions and differentials. This happened because active sulphur reacted with some metals and metal Alloys, especially those that used Copper as the alloying element to form metal sulphides that in turn caused corrosion of the metal.

    A generation ago deactivated or buffered sulfur was developed that could react with the phosphorous and create a protective and sacrificial layer in conditions created inside gear boxes. This formulation was not corrosive to Brass, copper or other metal alloys used in transmissions. Today this is widely used in automotive transmission and gear oils.

    Although de-activated sulphur may be used in a gear oil and may be safe for yellow metals such as brass and copper, it does not address the question of whether a GL-5 product can be used in all transmissions and especially those with synchromesh. A GL-5 grade oil has a very high rating for EP (Extreme Pressure) protection. EP gear oils contain additives that prevent metal surfaces from cold welding under the extreme pressure conditions found in situations where Boundary lubrication prevails. At the high local temperatures associated with metal-to-metal contact, an EP additive combines chemically with the metal to form a surface film that is ductile enough to prevent the welding of opposing surfaces and prevent scuffing or scoring that is destructive to sliding surfaces under high loads.

    In normal operation, the sulfur/phosphorous additive forms a black sacrificial coating on the gears and anything it touches with a little pressure and temperature. As the gears turn, instead of wearing, the sacrificial coating of additives is peeled off or worn off. This is normal and acceptable in all steel gears. But when one or more of the surfaces is brass or another soft metal, the sacrificial coating is stronger than the base metal, and instead of just peeling off, it takes with it a few microns of the softer metal.

    An API GL-4 gear oil of any given viscosity has about of the level of sulfur/phosphorous additive that would be in the API GL-5 product, so the bond with the metal surface inside the transmission is not as strong, and therefore can be peeled off without peeling a layer of soft metal. This means that the GL-4 product provides a little less extreme pressure protection than a GL-5 oil but less wear on synchromesh components of a transmission. When a GL-5 oil is used in a transmission with synchromesh it can create up to 4 times the amount of copper in a used oil analysis as that of a GL-4 product. Synchronisers will eventually wear to the point where they become ineffective.

    When used in a differential, there is a 30% increase in the torque load compared with a transmission, so in this case, the extra EP protection is required, which is where an API GL-5 oil is best suited.

    Although API GL-3 oils are considered obsolete as they have less protection than API GL-4 oils, some transmission manufacturers may still specify an API GL-3 gear oil. There are many formulations of GL-3 oils in the market, some with sulfur/phosphorous additive and some with Zinc/phosphorous. Many Diesel engine oils classify as a GL-3 or GL-4 in gear protection.
    "

    Somewhere in there you may find an answer.
    Just trying to help not obfuscate!

    Cheers.
    COL and Dano like this.
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  5. #5
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    From personal experience, don't use 80-90 any brand, will not work.
    Will stress your synchros no end and will change gears like a dog
    Absolutely , has to be 80W max
    http://www.hi-tecoils.com.au/wp-cont...20Apr%2018.pdf

    Or semi synth
    https://penriteoil.com.au/products/t...5w-80-semi-syn

  6. #6
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    How old is the workshop manual spec?
    In my opinion, as an old school mechanic (qualified) is that EP 80 is a basic generic oil name which has long been updated to modern standards with extra additives to improve the oil. In fact, it (EP additives) was found to be the cause of bronze synchro wear (corrosion) in gearboxes but was good in diffs/hypoid rear axles, EP = Extreme Pressure for the high gear tooth load in hypoid, and better high pressure oils have been developed to supersede EP for gearboxes.
    I think the GL4 and GL5 specs are the later equivalents.
    I have used VMX80 as the recommended product for an older FWD Corolla transaxle, and other transmissions.

    Here is an interesting comment I picked up from Castrol to a query on another forum (reply to a Landcruiser owner about 2014):
    "Early EP additives were active sulphur – and when it got hot this could be quite aggressive to yellow metals so it was always suggested not to use hypoid oils in units with yellow metals. Hypoid oils are normally found in back axles where the gears have greater loads and these normally have a GL-5 rating. Modern additives tend to be less aggressive, but we normally suggest as a safety margin to not use GL-5 rated products in synchromesh units and ones with yellow metals.

    GL-4 EP ratings are classed as “mild” and are what I would suggest would be suitable – we also have some “Universal” products that can cover GL-5/5 ratings using specialised chemistries that again, are not aggressive as the old additives.

    I would suggest Castrol EP 80W-90 would be suitable, or better still – Universal 75W-90 which is a part synthetic and a good all round oil suitable for low and high EP requirements. Being a 75W-90 means low viscosity when cold for easy gear change and the working viscosity is a 90 meaning good lubrication and wear protection.
    "

    Link to Universal 80w-90 from same Castrol webpage in my first post:
    https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...iversal-80w-90

    OK, you may be in possession of some detailed specific reasons for trying to locate a straight EP80 oil, but I believe it is just hiding in full view disguised with new names. My opinion only.

    Maybe a chat to Castrol or Penrite would help.

    Another quote I just found on the Penrite site - covers a lot of ground:
    "The Difference between GL-4 and GL-5 Gear Oils

    Many people are confused about API gear oil classifications. It is a common belief that API GL-5 oils can be used where API GL-4 requirements are specified. Although this is true for “gear oil”, it does not make API GL-5 gear oils satisfactory for all Transmissions especially those that use synchromesh. They may meet the “gear oil” specifications, not the transmission oil specifications. API GL-4 and GL-5 categories do not mention or have anything to do with transmission synchronisers.

    Originally, lead additives were used in gear oils and were very good at reducing wear in loaded gear sets. Lead though, is not very friendly to the environment and was phased out in favour of a Phosphorus and Sulphur combination. These gear oils used the Phosphorus and the Sulphur to attach to the gears and create a strong sacrificial layer to be worn off over the Life of the fluid, thus protecting the gear from abrasive wear, high load and Shock loads. Initially, the problem with this type of formulation was that the Sulphur used was active and caused corrosion of yellow and other soft metals used in transmissions and differentials. This happened because active sulphur reacted with some metals and metal Alloys, especially those that used Copper as the alloying element to form metal sulphides that in turn caused corrosion of the metal.

    A generation ago deactivated or buffered sulfur was developed that could react with the phosphorous and create a protective and sacrificial layer in conditions created inside gear boxes. This formulation was not corrosive to Brass, copper or other metal alloys used in transmissions. Today this is widely used in automotive transmission and gear oils.

    Although de-activated sulphur may be used in a gear oil and may be safe for yellow metals such as brass and copper, it does not address the question of whether a GL-5 product can be used in all transmissions and especially those with synchromesh. A GL-5 grade oil has a very high rating for EP (Extreme Pressure) protection. EP gear oils contain additives that prevent metal surfaces from cold welding under the extreme pressure conditions found in situations where Boundary lubrication prevails. At the high local temperatures associated with metal-to-metal contact, an EP additive combines chemically with the metal to form a surface film that is ductile enough to prevent the welding of opposing surfaces and prevent scuffing or scoring that is destructive to sliding surfaces under high loads.

    In normal operation, the sulfur/phosphorous additive forms a black sacrificial coating on the gears and anything it touches with a little pressure and temperature. As the gears turn, instead of wearing, the sacrificial coating of additives is peeled off or worn off. This is normal and acceptable in all steel gears. But when one or more of the surfaces is brass or another soft metal, the sacrificial coating is stronger than the base metal, and instead of just peeling off, it takes with it a few microns of the softer metal.

    An API GL-4 gear oil of any given viscosity has about of the level of sulfur/phosphorous additive that would be in the API GL-5 product, so the bond with the metal surface inside the transmission is not as strong, and therefore can be peeled off without peeling a layer of soft metal. This means that the GL-4 product provides a little less extreme pressure protection than a GL-5 oil but less wear on synchromesh components of a transmission. When a GL-5 oil is used in a transmission with synchromesh it can create up to 4 times the amount of copper in a used oil analysis as that of a GL-4 product. Synchronisers will eventually wear to the point where they become ineffective.

    When used in a differential, there is a 30% increase in the torque load compared with a transmission, so in this case, the extra EP protection is required, which is where an API GL-5 oil is best suited.

    Although API GL-3 oils are considered obsolete as they have less protection than API GL-4 oils, some transmission manufacturers may still specify an API GL-3 gear oil. There are many formulations of GL-3 oils in the market, some with sulfur/phosphorous additive and some with Zinc/phosphorous. Many Diesel engine oils classify as a GL-3 or GL-4 in gear protection.
    "

    Somewhere in there you may find an answer.
    Just trying to help not obfuscate!

    Cheers.
    That is a great post there Chris, that surely does explain the differences between GL-4 and GL-5 transmission oils
    Fordman likes this.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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  7. #7
    COL
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    Here is a link to another thread on this subject on Aussiefrogs

    EP80 transaxle oil
    Fordman and Dano like this.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

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