Ghosn escapes!
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    Default Ghosn escapes!

    Ghosn, on bail and banned from leaving Japan, has shown up in Lebanon. It doesn't look good for his professed innocence.

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    But did he have any chance of a fair trial in Japan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Ghosn, on bail and banned from leaving Japan, has shown up in Lebanon. It doesn't look good for his professed innocence.

    How exciting! Do you have any details or has someone seen a doppelganger?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Maybe the so called escape was by arrangement, given the likelihood he could implicate a whole host of Japanese fellow travellers

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...ort/ar-BBYuIlQ
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 31st December 2019 at 10:55 PM.

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    I wonder if he used the same travel agent that Tony Mokbel used?
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    Interesting commentary from other news sources...

    "It will also heighten scrutiny of Japan’s notoriously harsh justice system, which experts say ill befits one of the world’s most advanced economies. A widely cited 99.8% conviction rate for those charged with crimes has led to criticism that judges give prosecutors too much credence, while the country still retains the death penalty for more serious crimes.

    In April, more than 1,000 Japanese academics and lawyers – including Ghosn’s lawyer, Junichiro Hironaka – signed a letter organised by Human Rights Watch criticising Japan’s hitojichi-shiho, or “hostage justice” system. Suspects can be detained for long periods, questioned without their lawyers present, and barred from access to their families – as was the case for Ghosn.

    Kenneth Roth, the non-governmental organisation’s executive director, said: “Among the conditions of Japan’s justice system that Carlos Ghosn fled was a prohibition of communicating with his wife – part of the pressure to induce confessions even out of formal custody.”
    The Ghosn case also highlights the potential for abuse of a 23-day detention limit, with prosecutors regularly rearresting suspects on minor variations of original charges in order to continue questioning."

    And there are probably more issues of prejudice against those who come under suspicion of crime, let alone being charged, in the Japanese legal system.
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    The conviction rate reflects the fact that only charges with very strong evidence proceed to trial. They also like a verifiable confession in such cases, which like a guilty plea, gets a reduced sentence.

    My gut feeling is that Ghosn is going to turn out to be dishonest.

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    Doubt that. For starters the police there do not have the investigative powers that exist in other countries. A consequence of WW2 and nobbling what had been a corrupt, vicious and unjust police force until then. Couple that with the culture and shame to the individual, it appears confessions are the best tool they have and the opposite extreme of what they were 75 years ago..

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572

    It's not Japan but worth watching "When they see us" to demonstrate how forced confessions are nothing but an abuse of authority and gross injustice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY

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    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    Doubt that. For starters the police there do not have the investigative powers that exist in other countries. A consequence of WW2 and nobbling what had been a corrupt, vicious and unjust police force until then. Couple that with the culture and shame to the individual, it appears confessions are the best tool they have and the opposite extreme of what they were 75 years ago..

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572

    It's not Japan but worth watching "When they see us" to demonstrate how forced confessions are nothing but an abuse of authority and gross injustice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY
    Both interesting, and highlight different problems. The emphasis in our Detective Training schools is not on confessions in fact they warn against dependence or reliance on confession. "A confession is only a good start to an investigation but not a substitute for meticulous and exhaustive investigation" There is also the known issue of people that for their own reasons make false confessions or merely make no effort to exculpate (to use an American legalism) themselves. No investigator worth "his or her salt" would conduct such an investigation without making damn sure they had taken that investigation to a point of confidence in the totality of all evidence as no one wants an innocent person convicted.

    I have great concerns at the system as it stands in Japan, it reeks of improper and unfair tactics to induce a confession from an innocent person - that only serves the system, not justice and I am sure that as the spotlight of world jurisprudence shines light on those facts, Japan will one day re-build its justice system, there are some slight signs, just needs justice and fairness to reign in its way of thinking.

    Whether Ghosn is innocent or guilty, we may have to wait and see - whatever his case has opened the unjust can of worms and that may well be the thing that leads to reform.

    Like everyone I would have liked him to have seen the process through to acquittal, this way some will always claim whatever they speculate as to his innocence or guilt - perhaps civil processes in other jurisdictions will expose the true dimensions of his innocence or guilt. A good lesson to others who wish to soar with the eagles in dark world of International business.

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    The Ghosn Who Walks.


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    It turns out Ghosn had a few more clues about where his next domicile should be than the hapless WikiLeaks founder.............
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    Frrom the modest amount of Japanese legal procedure I know, a confession has no value in court unless it contains elements not known to anyone but the perpetrator and verified independently by police or forensic science. As Kenfuego remarks about Australia, it's a start. There it can be like a guilty plea when verified.

    On Ghosn's case, Renault in France and the French police have supplied evidence to Japan with related information, and have removed him from his position. There's a lot more to this than we have been told in the press.
    There's more happenng in Nissan over misuse than rivalry between top executives. None of us know very much, without a court report, yet AFers seem to have made up their minds.
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    "made up their minds"...yes, but not about his guilt or innocence, rather the current Japanese justice system. And you know those issues. For starters, being questioned without your legal rep's presence being permitted. Not first world stuff but more akin to some despotic third world state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    The conviction rate reflects the fact that only charges with very strong evidence proceed to trial. They also like a verifiable confession in such cases, which like a guilty plea, gets a reduced sentence. My gut feeling is that Ghosn is going to turn out to be dishonest.
    No idea about his guilt or innocence but of course many people on very high salaries have schemes to make even more money. These schemes may or may not be legal and/or moral!

    However, I just can't buy any prosecuting system having such a high conviction rate, particularly one with such a hard-line justice system. A lighter sentence for confessions makes it worse, not better IMHO.

    Anyway, it'll be interesting to watch what happens next.
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    This will upset his fan club
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKnkeGe81dE
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    Good heavens! That's hitting with both barrels. The fans won't be pleased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    This will upset his fan club
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKnkeGe81dE
    Too much of a smart-arse for my taste. Calling Ghosn the "shitbox whisperer" every few seconds shows no prejudice of course...

    I gave up halfway. Every now and again "allegedly" and "apparently" pop up quietly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    This will upset his fan club
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKnkeGe81dE
    John Cadogan is not a legal commentator, in fact he's not even a good motor industry commentator. He is a self aggrandised boor. His opinions are junk because he permanently keeps one hand in his trouser pocket. I would not rely on one ounce of his advice.............
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    From all the limited information available from various sources, it seems to me there was probably some very dodgy things happening at the top of Nissan and Carlos Ghosn was almost certainly not the only one involved. I see that little press has been given to the recent resignation (Sept) of Ghosn's successor Hiroto Saikawa who was also under a cloud over financial misconduct around his income. Seems very like Ghosn's issues but no charges or investigation appear to have been raised. He has been allowed to resign and save face. The HR department of Nissan could be a good place to raid for evidence against many people I'd have thought.

    We may never find the full truth but as many here have said, the Japanese legal system seems quite unjust and barbaric even. But expecting Ghosn to be the one to risk (high) taking a fall by way of a conviction as the last straw or trigger to force a review into the system is a big ask. I see there is still another (American, Greg Kelly) Nissan executive in custody facing lesser but similar charges and yet to face trial. He was arrested at the same time as Ghosn and also maintains his innocence. He obviously doesn't have a villa in Lebanon to flee to.

    Ghosn has released a statement from Lebanon part of which includes -
    “I am now in Lebanon and will no longer be held hostage by a rigged Japanese justice system where guilt is presumed, discrimination is rampant, and basic human rights are denied, in flagrant disregard of Japan’s legal obligations under international law and treaties it is bound to uphold,” the statement said.

    I note his Japanese lawyer is not exactly praiseworthy of their legal system. - “Maybe he thought he won’t get a fair trial,” said his lawyer, Junichiro Hironaka, stressing that he continues to believe Ghosn is innocent. “I can’t blame him for thinking that way.”

    Still a fair bit to be revealed in this one yet but I doubt we will ever get the full story.

    PS. There also seems to have been little press or credit for the way Ghosn saved Nissan from bankruptcy and likely takeover. The job he was hired to do. Certainly appears from the outside that the Japanese management at Nissan just wanted a reason to get him out of the picture and get back to business as usual. No excuses for Ghosn of course for the probable shady deals he appears to have been doing with his remuneration package. "they were all doing it" is no defence and likely played a part in his decision to flee.
    Last edited by CXVingtCinq; 2nd January 2020 at 09:54 AM.
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    Can't wait for the Holywood blockbuster on this.
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    We simply don't know.
    I have more faith in the Japanese legal system, not that i know it, but the Japanese have a very advanced culture and are fair minded people from my experience working for Toyota.
    It's a fact that Ghosn under his watch got them out of the poo but can't see how that has anything to do with allegedly having his 'fingers in the till'?
    If it were my business, why would i want to get rid of a talented employee who saved my company?????
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    If it were my business, why would i want to get rid of a talented employee who saved my company?????
    The universal human problem....Greed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    We simply don't know.
    I have more faith in the Japanese legal system, not that i know it, but the Japanese have a very advanced culture and are fair minded people from my experience working for Toyota.
    It's a fact that Ghosn under his watch got them out of the poo but can't see how that has anything to do with allegedly having his 'fingers in the till'?
    If it were my business, why would i want to get rid of a talented employee who saved my company?????
    You don't understand the Japanese Legal system and you don't understand Japan or the Japanese. Prior to Ghosn's arrival at Nissan, Japanese car makers had a closed purchasing system involving a lot of backsheesh, resulting in inflated prices for equipment and materials. On his arrival at Nissan, Ghosn destroyed many a cosy relationship between senior office bearers and the supplier they were responsible for (and receiving gratuities from) by implementing the European lowest price tender system as his first step in turning Nissan's fortune's around. This invariably would have put many high profile Japanese noses out of joint, not just those of Nissan employees, but of the now locked-out suppliers as well. Many enemies could have been made...........
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    That would seem to be a good reason to stay squeaky clean and keep your fingers out of the till.

    What were the circumstances that have upset Renault in France? It isn't only the Japanese who are unhappy.

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