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  1. #26
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    My gut feeling is that Ghosn is going to turn out to be dishonest.
    My gut feeling was that he was thrown under the bus by parties concerned about Japanese ownership of Nissan.

    It would certainly appear that his treatment by the Japanese legal system has been less than ideal.

    On another note: if John Cadogan thinks he's bad, then he must be ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    That would seem to be a good reason to stay squeaky clean and keep your fingers out of the till.

    What were the circumstances that have upset Renault in France? It isn't only the Japanese who are unhappy.
    My wild arsed Guess (WAG) (1) it would cost them money to try and defend , (2) High probability in a seriously rigged system the expenditure either way would not avoid additional and ongoing cost (3) Better to go with the alleged conduct and sack, then a new permanent replacement can be appointed and hope the sacking precludes Ghosn from accessing his full remuneration package (Golden Parachute) (4) Can always wipe hands and hope the company avoids scrutiny on the principle " see we did something, took action and it is then plausible they were misled in the process. (5) anything else anyone can drag up can be dismissed with a similar hand-wave.

    Ken

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    Renault also sacked CEO, M. Bollore, and has referred Ghosn's stupendously elaborate wedding at Versailles to the police. That appears to have been paid for by the car company instead of being private expenditure. I doubt France is also on somebody's travel list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    You don't understand the Japanese Legal system and you don't understand Japan or the Japanese. Prior to Ghosn's arrival at Nissan, Japanese car makers had a closed purchasing system involving a lot of backsheesh, resulting in inflated prices for equipment and materials. On his arrival at Nissan, Ghosn destroyed many a cosy relationship between senior office bearers and the supplier they were responsible for (and receiving gratuities from) by implementing the European lowest price tender system as his first step in turning Nissan's fortune's around. This invariably would have put many high profile Japanese noses out of joint, not just those of Nissan employees, but of the now locked-out suppliers as well. Many enemies could have been made...........
    Guilty on most counts your Tell us more about your expertise of the Japanese way/justice system. I know, ours is a legal system

    At Toyota Australia all parts were competitively sourced from a global market. To buy locally the part had to be 2% within best price.
    You are right, for all i know, Nissan could work completely different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    The universal human problem....Greed.
    Suspect you are on the money (pun intended) probably from all sides concerned.
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    They still have the power to kick the crap out of you in the back of the station, a power that is still used, at least on low level suspects.

    The psychological/cultural complexities of confession/apology are interesting, but can also be disadvantageous, for example pressure on sexual assault victims to accept a humble ( but insincere ) apology and minor compensation, instead of proceeding to trial and conviction.

    Those arrested have few rights and the conviction rate is frightening - it presupposes that the police never get it wrong. Recent events in Victoria rather suggest that this is not an altogether safe assumption.

    Police don't generally waste their time and paperwork on trivia, but there is a need for some checks and balances. Don't seem to be many in the Japanese system.

    Suspect that we shall never know the truth of this one

    Andrew

    Quote Originally Posted by dvr View Post
    Doubt that. For starters the police there do not have the investigative powers that exist in other countries. A consequence of WW2 and nobbling what had been a corrupt, vicious and unjust police force until then. Couple that with the culture and shame to the individual, it appears confessions are the best tool they have and the opposite extreme of what they were 75 years ago..

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572

    It's not Japan but worth watching "When they see us" to demonstrate how forced confessions are nothing but an abuse of authority and gross injustice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3F9n_smGWY
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    That would seem to be a good reason to stay squeaky clean and keep your fingers out of the till.

    What were the circumstances that have upset Renault in France? It isn't only the Japanese who are unhappy.
    Nonetheless, it is customary in western circles to be considered innocent until found guilty by a court (not popular opinion or the media). Unless you have seen the so far secret documentation from either party that proves Ghosn's guilt I'd suggest you can treat him only with suspicion at this stage.
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    From German media with further links for the interested (in English)
    https://www.businessinsider.de/wirts...ush-1577992206
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Shame he escaped, it would have been a very interesting trial, had it actually reached that stage.
    But being in jail and under house arrest for over a year one can understand why Ghosn had enough.
    But I suspect there was little chance of a fair trial and, with the Nissan management cutting deals in the background, a good chance he would be convicted of something. Someone at Nissan had to sign-off on his remuneration, probably at board level. Why aren't these people on trial also if it's such a heinous crime?

    But even if he was found innocent of the charges his career has been ruined so what has he got to loose.
    Even now, he's not going to be living in poverty and can smile to himself while Nissan continues to sink as it has done since he was knifed. Et tu Brute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Shame he escaped, it would have been a very interesting trial, had it actually reached that stage.
    But being in jail and under house arrest for over a year one can understand why Ghosn had enough.
    But I suspect there was little chance of a fair trial and, with the Nissan management cutting deals in the background, a good chance he would be convicted of something. Someone at Nissan had to sign-off on his remuneration, probably at board level. Why aren't these people on trial also if it's such a heinous crime?
    Yes, it seems more than a little strange that only Ghosn and a Senior Manager, Greg Kelly (an American) have been charged (Thrown under the bus?) and no one else even at Board level or in accounts. Someone else would have seen the accounts and known what was going on. As the main charge seems to be non-disclosure / reporting of his full salary package you would think this was approved by the Board and/or be documented somewhere. I don't know much about Japanese company law but the Board should be responsible for any non-disclosures in their financials surely.? Or are the Board just giving him up to the Japanese tax authorities to get rid of him.? As I said previously, his successor, Hiroto Saikawa, was allowed to resign and walk away in September when similar suspicions were raised against him.. There is also a charge of using Nissan planes for personal travel and this sort of thing seems hard to prove although is possibly true given Ghosn's ego and apparent jet-setting lifestyle, but you would think this alone hardly warrants serious jail time.

    All sorts of thoughts spring to mind about this whole affair. Keeping it in the Club.? Saving face for Japanese Executives who were failing to make a profit and then suddenly this foreigner shows up and turns things around.? The whole thing smells like a setup to me..
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    He won't be going to France or the EU either. Accounts appear to be irregular there and the police have been notified.

    Why turn this into a Nissan executive conspiracy? It's about personal appropriation of company funds. The boss didn't own the car companies. If all this was proved here there would be time spent in her majesty's secure accommodation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    He won't be going to France or the EU either. Accounts appear to be irregular there and the police have been notified.

    Why turn this into a Nissan executive conspiracy? It's about personal appropriation of company funds. The boss didn't own the car companies. If all this was proved here there would be time spent in her majesty's secure accommodation.
    Where does that information come from? The board approves the salary, approves the remuneration package, surely they also had oversight and audit and accountancy for performance and merit based checks back to the board. If not why not. I wonder if Ghosn has his copies in a safe place as well.

    OF course when you look at the Jeep promotional budget oversight gaps, perhaps that is right across the motor industry ?

    Ken

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    The French papers Ken. I suppose people as grand as that get things done on their say so. Who would argue?
    Add in this piece from the Wall St Journal 26/8/19:
    "Nissan Motor Co. boss Carlos Ghosn built a parallel business as an investor in Silicon Valley with his son, using millions of dollars he received from an executive at a Nissan business partner in Oman.


    The operation, known only to a handful of people, adds crucial new details to what is seen as the most serious criminal charge in a broad financial-crimes investigation against Mr. Ghosn. "


    The Oman business seem to be a key part of the conduit out of Japan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    From German media with further links for the interested (in English)
    https://www.businessinsider.de/wirts...ush-1577992206
    Paywalled!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    The French papers Ken. I suppose people as grand as that get things done on their say so. Who would argue?
    Add in this piece from the Wall St Journal 26/8/19:
    "Nissan Motor Co. boss Carlos Ghosn built a parallel business as an investor in Silicon Valley with his son, using millions of dollars he received from an executive at a Nissan business partner in Oman.


    The operation, known only to a handful of people, adds crucial new details to what is seen as the most serious criminal charge in a broad financial-crimes investigation against Mr. Ghosn. "


    The Oman business seem to be a key part of the conduit out of Japan.
    Just another personal superannuation scheme, I would have thought..............
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Paywalled!
    That's interesting! Wonder how it works? I just clicked on now and it is all there
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    It isn't paywalled, but has several trackers. The malware detector may have blocked it.
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  19. #44
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    Carlos Ghosn is due to give a press conference later today Lebanon time and details of how he got out of Japan are expected to be a part of this as well as evidence he says he has about the "Coup" to stop him merging Nissan and Renault.

    And in the latest attempt by Japanese prosecutors an arrest warrant has been issued for his wife, Carole Ghosn. She also has dual US and Lebanese citizenship which Japan probably hopes will see her extradited if she ever goes back to the US.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51018638
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    I would have thought that the small number of large shareholders make that decision, not the chief employee.

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    His defence? from your link..

    Mr Ghosn told Fox Business that he has "actual evidence" that proves there was a coup to stop him merging Nissan with French carmaker Renault. He also said he would identify people at the news conference that he believed were behind his arrest over financial misconduct.
    In earlier court filings and statements released by his lawyers in Japan, Mr Ghosn has accused Nissan executives of colluding with Japanese prosecutors and officials from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.
    Mr Ghosn's legal team in Japan also said prosecutors withheld evidence, citing concerns voiced by Nissan that it included sensitive information about operations and employees.
    Interesting if Mrs Ghosn tests the warrant on her by using her US passport, now that would be an interesting extradition proceeding and the US courts are very particular in setting legal conditions as to charges, treatment and legalities, before surrendering any person for extradition. Unlikely that Japan could comply or would want too, maybe a way of getting documents on record too that Nissan may not like.

    Interesting ...or it might just fade off the scene. Just like some of our famous fugitives, some who died overseas while supposedly living the good life in exile.

    Ken

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    This is the icing on the cake! Ghosn almost singlehandedly saved Nissan from extinction and this is obviously more "harm" than the Japanese psyche can accomodate.

    "Nissan said Mr Ghosn's flight from Japan would not affect its policy of holding him responsible for "serious misconduct".

    "The company will continue to take appropriate legal action to hold [Mr] Ghosn accountable for the harm that his misconduct has caused to Nissan," the carmaker said."
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    If you employed a very capable manager who greatly increased your profits, but found he was also quietly diverting your cash into his own pocket, what would you do?

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    Cost benefit analysis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    If you employed a very capable manager who greatly increased your profits, but found he was also quietly trying to put Nissan under Renault ownership and that you could lose your highly paid job on the basis that the "cost cutter" would make you redundant, some dozens of you, what would you do?
    Fixed it for you................
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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