Citroen sold the worlds first production diesel car ! :) The Rosalie. 1935
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Thread: Citroen sold the worlds first production diesel car ! :) The Rosalie. 1935

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    Default Citroen sold the worlds first production diesel car ! :) The Rosalie. 1935

    Hi
    Interesting fact I discovered while replying to the Diesel thread. Harry Ricardo was the person in the article.
    I never knew that
    Jaahn
    The whole reference; http://www.oldengine.org/members/die...sc/Ricardo.htm
    The CitroŽn 'Rosalie' car was the world's first production diesel car, with the engine featuring a design incorporating the Ricardo 'Comet' MkIII combustion chamber.

    Copy of the Patent for the Comet combustion chamber



    1935 CitroŽn 'Rosalie' Car




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    Peugeot also released a diesel for the 402, around 1938, but with war looming the French government was concerned with the drain on diesel fuel stocks so they discouraged diesel car production - Dumont says they "practically banned" it. Peugeot had previously produced cars during the 1920's with the Tartais compression ignition engine but that proved an engineering dead end.
    Last edited by Russell Hall; 25th November 2019 at 02:22 PM.

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    Sir Harry Ricardo was probably the greatest engine designer. His inventions and the results of his investigations are ubiquitous and made modern high speed diesels possible. The firm still exists, now with thousands doing the work - https://ricardo.com/

    His first engine, after a year spent studying civil engineering, won a competition for most miles covered by a quart of petrol - 40. This was in 1904.

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    Hi seasink
    It is difficult to quantify the 'greatest' often but certainly Harry was up there. One reason is the fact he was there at the beginning of the technology and he did not have many 'shoulders to stand on' like later people ! I have read quite a few of his book and papers in past times. Certainly these greats had natural talent but built on that with an enquiring mind and self learning on the tools and from all others sources also.

    A second person is Citroen who it is shown with his "Rosalie" was always prepared to go around the world and buy into new technology for his ground breaking cars. His expertise seemed to be getting a good team of engineers and then selling the idea to the punters. Not always making money either.
    Cheers Jaahn

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    Icon14 Learning new things every day. Love it.

    My exposure to Ricardo turbulent head design came about with the purchase of a 1939 American Bantam Tourer. I was familiar with Austin sevens because this particular vehicle (my first registered car HFO 546) was fitted with an Austin engine and gearbox, later through the Austin Seven Car Club I located bits of an ABC (American Bantam Car) engine and gearbox on display at an A7 event at Emu Bottom Victoria.

    I was told that the A7 special building and racing fraternity adopted the Bantam heads due to the more efficient Ricardo developed combustion chamber, but due to the Bantam Factory avoiding paying royalties to Austin the plans for the engine were mirror imaged and to fit on an Austin seven special or racing car the radiator outlet faced the bulkhead, so the DIY designers of the day used that feature (no radiator in front of the engine) to streamline their design, and as it turned out there were lots of ABC engines around minus their heads as those had been snapped up by the special and racing car builders of the day.

    Two things that meant I could buy cheap or free correct engines for my car, and as time passed the heads became available for little money ($10 to $15!) and confirm the better turbulent design of the combustion chamber when porting and polishing those heads, and comparing with the standard A7 head.

    I don't think I ever confirmed if the mirror image Bantam engine was copied from a British 1929 racing engine, but I suspect it was as there were racing engines of the time with pressure fed crankshafts using a transfer pipe system rather the "spit and hope" standard A7 engine, and strangely the transfer pipe system on the Bantam crankshaft was not efficient as the faster the engine ran the more that the centrifugal forces reduced the flow of oil to the crankshaft journals - perhaps one fault of the mirror imaging of the plans to avoid a payment of a royalty in those days.

    Just a bit of trivia - I still have my original Bantam (in bits) and many other, some working bantam engines. I recently sent over new spare engine parts to Paul Egerton Green (P.E.G.) of Western Australia who is building up another Bantam Engine. Paul is well known for his restored Austin sevens, a top person just like other fine people I have met and made friends through a lifetime of tinkering with old cars.

    Keep the information coming, love it, stirs up all sorts of memories.

    Ken

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    Always intrigued me whether the four tonne Peugeot trucks on sale in Australia in 1925 and advertised as available with a diesel engine were in fact fitted with the Tartais compression ignition engine. There was quite a business in France after the First War fitting Tartais engines to surplus American Army Pierce Arrow trucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    Always intrigued me whether the four tonne Peugeot trucks on sale in Australia in 1925 and advertised as available with a diesel engine were in fact fitted with the Tartais compression ignition engine. There was quite a business in France after the First War fitting Tartais engines to surplus American Army Pierce Arrow trucks.
    Hi Russell
    More information please. The name Tartais does not come up on a Google search. Is it actually an exclamation by the Gauls ???
    Jaahn

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    My mistake Tartrais not Tartais. Somewhere along the line I dropped a r. Last heard of in 1930 when Tartrais and his wife were leading a Peugeot expedition across Africa with Tartrais engine cars. In the 1920's The Autocar did a comparison test between a petrol engine Peugeot and one with a Tartrais engine. I don't have a copy.

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    Default Tartrais Peugeot !

    Hi Russell
    Here is some information from a quick look.
    "-- as early as 1923 Peugeot had submitted to the Press for test two cars identical except for their engines. One had a 2,199 c.c. two-cylinder two-stroke Tartrais-type oil engine of 100 x 140 mm., the other a 2,590 c.c. four-cylinder 85 x 130 mm. petrol engine. On an identical journey of just over 103 miles, at an identical average speed of fractionally above 32 m.p.g., the oiler returned 19.88 m.p.g., the petrolengined car 18.87 m.p.g. But the costs for fuel were equivalent to 28/2d. and 7/3d., petrol against diesel. Both cars had the same gear ratios and tyre sizes and the oiler was timed to do a two-way speed of 37.16 m.p.h., the petrol Peugeot 45.48 m.p.h., over a kilometre which did not permit top pace"

    I have never heard of Tartrais but i did see some patents referred to during searching. Google does not really give much emphasis to foreign sites or information. After all the Yanks know everthing
    I will keep looking. There were some copies of the Peugilist from past days ?
    Jaahn

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    Plenty of hits if you search for French sites .fr

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    Dumont is the authority on early Peugeot. There were French language articles in their classic car magazines.

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    Which brings me back to my original speculation that the Peugeot 4 ton trucks on sale in Australia in 1925 with a diesel option may have actually had a Tartrais engine fitted. At 1100 pounds not many sold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    Which brings me back to my original speculation that the Peugeot 4 ton trucks on sale in Australia in 1925 with a diesel option may have actually had a Tartrais engine fitted. At 1100 pounds not many sold.
    Hi Russell
    It is hard for me to remember back that far But from my Googling so far it might seem that Peugeot was actually making some Tartrais engines. Perhaps they had some arrangement with him and decided to try out the concept. After all it was formative years in road transport but the depression soon after that caused a great disruption. I have been busy so have not had time to look further, but I will.
    Jaahn

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    Peugeot had a close association with Tartrais which makes me think the truck engine may have been one. In 1930 he and his wife were leading an expedition of Tartrais engine Peugeots across Africa with the support of the company. But after 1930 Peugeot no longer had a large car suitable for a compression engine for several years and when they did design a diesel engine for the 402 it was a conventional diesel. The design engineer in charge was deGauthier, later to be chief Peugeot design engineer until his retirement in 1975. As a farewell tribute Peugeot found and restored a 402 diesel as a rolling chassis.

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    There's a lot of interesting stuff, including clippings and pictures, here - https://forum.campeugeot.fr/viewtopic.php?t=5350

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    Nice photo of the truck. The 402 diesel chassis featured at Retromobile a few years back.

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    Tartrais' US patents are here, in English -

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US1327744
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US1414384
    He invented a early injector device.

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    Some Tartrais pics-
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Citroen sold the worlds first production diesel car ! :) The Rosalie. 1935-tartrais.gif   Citroen sold the worlds first production diesel car ! :) The Rosalie. 1935-tartrais2.gif  

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    This https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...onomy-peugeots suggests that the Tartrais diesel Peugeot car was a trial only.
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