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    Default Franco-German self defence alignment

    Mutual battery supply strategy -
    https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-minister-says


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Mutual battery supply strategy -
    https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-minister-says


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    Unless the Bosch /Volvo hydrogen fuel cell manufacturing/ development alliance develops a more cost effective alternative.

    Germany's Bosch powers up hydrogen cells for cars - www.thebull.com.au

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    Welcome Back!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    OMG welcome back Robmac I have missed your particular brand of genius.

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    Ha ha harrrrr, you guys were right...bait the Robster with enough electro-trickery threads and he cannot resist!

    Onya Rob.


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    The thought of hydrogen powered cars on today's roads, driven by today's drivers, frightens the hell out of me. Unless they can find a better way of storing it, rather than simply compressing it, the car's fuel tank is a bomb waiting to go off if the car gets T-boned or is wrapped around a pole. The pressure required to store enough for a decent range, is very high. If the cylinder is made conventionally from aluminium or steel, it would be prohibitively heavy, so they use composite materials like carbon fibre and resin. Reasonably light and massively strong, but sensitive to scratches and rough handling. These materials have been used in all sorts of applications for quite awhile. But for a pressure vessel in a private car, on public roads. No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    The thought of hydrogen powered cars on today's roads, driven by today's drivers, frightens the hell out of me. Unless they can find a better way of storing it, rather than simply compressing it, the car's fuel tank is a bomb waiting to go off if the car gets T-boned or is wrapped around a pole. The pressure required to store enough for a decent range, is very high. If the cylinder is made conventionally from aluminium or steel, it would be prohibitively heavy, so they use composite materials like carbon fibre and resin. Reasonably light and massively strong, but sensitive to scratches and rough handling. These materials have been used in all sorts of applications for quite awhile. But for a pressure vessel in a private car, on public roads. No thanks.
    So you refuse to ride in LPG powered vehicles as well ?
    I guess you don't have a LPG cylinder with your barbecue?

    You must also give LPG tankers a wide berth.

    TBH I'd be less worried about a regularly tested, steel pressure vessel rupturing in a accident than a polyethylene ULP tank rupturing.

    Have you even heard of taxi LPG tank exploding in a fire ?

    FWIW the technology is already mature and in use in Australia. Safety standards have been created. Hyundai builds hydrogen buses for South Korean public transport.


    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ntial/10082514

    Toyota hydrogen powered cars run the tanks at a pressure 70 MPa, around 1000psi, less than the pressure of the oxygen cylinder in your welding gear.

    Others store the hydrogen in a cryogenic container.

    Worth reading: http://cafr1.com/Hydrogen_vs_Propane.pdf
    Last edited by robmac; 4th May 2019 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Added link

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    Welcome back, Robert!
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    Seeing Australia invented the safe transportation of hydrogen strategy/technology, maybe that will be part of the vehicle storage method.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ntial/10082514


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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Welcome back, Robert!
    Thanks Jo,

    I can now confirm that I am no longer a type 2 diabetic.

    Thanks to losing around 8 kg and subscribing to a local gymnasium.

    I've now totally given up sugar (and nearly all white bread).

    However I still indulge a a spoon of honey on my morning porridge.

    I've also discovered that the "prick and soak strip test" for blood sugar is only very approximate.

    I have to say I'm feeling far better after making the effort.

    cheers

    Rob

    Sorry to Nagaman for the off topic foray. Some things never change.
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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Great to see you back Rob!
    The Australian Standard for a vehicle LPG cylinder is so high that it borders on military spec.
    If petrol was introduced 'now' it would never be allowed. Tanks easily ruptured, medical problems from its use/contact/etc and every time a petrol tanker falls over it leaks! The tankers are made from quite thin wall aluminium, FIA specification for FT3 and 5 tanks is for a more robust material.
    Brendan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    So you refuse to ride in LPG powered vehicles as well?
    I guess you don't have a LPG cylinder with your barbecue?
    You must also give LPG tankers a wide berth.
    Not at all, Rob. I’ve been driving LPG cars on and off since 1983. Various Commodores and Falcons in the ‘80s, and an old Range Rover since the government offered that rebate on installation about 12(?) years ago.
    I’ve got 2 LPG barbecues, and the house gas supply is from two 45kg cylinders.
    LPG road tankers are almost bulletproof. Tougher than petrol tankers.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    TBH I'd be less worried about a regularly tested, steel pressure vessel rupturing in an accident than a polyethylene ULP tank rupturing.
    Have you even heard of taxi LPG tank exploding in a fire?
    Agreed. Although they aren’t regularly tested like exchangeable BBQ or welding cylinders are.
    Yes, I’ve heard of taxi LPG tanks exploding in a fire, but it’s very very rare in Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    FWIW the technology is already mature and in use in Australia. Safety standards have been created. Hyundai builds hydrogen buses for South Korean public transport.
    Agreed. I have no problem with buses and medium to large commercial vehicles. You can use old-tech tried and true storage cylinder technology because space and weight aren’t as critical, and the tank(s) can be well protected due to the size and nature of the vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Toyota hydrogen powered cars run the tanks at a pressure 70 MPa, around 1000psi, less than the pressure of the oxygen cylinder in your welding gear.
    Sorry Rob, but you need to check your figures.
    70 MPa is about 10,000 psi. A typical oxygen cylinder in a welding set is 14 MPa or about 2,000 psi.
    I’m not sure if you realise this. LPG liquefies under pressure but hydrogen doesn’t. It’s a permanent gas. A ‘full’ LPG cylinder is 80% liquid with vapour in the headspace. The pressure varies with the temperature. About 600 kPa on a cold day and around 1,100 kPa on a hot day. A litre of liquid boils off to become around 270 litres of gas, depending on the temperature. So you can get a lot of LPG in a car’s fuel tank.
    With hydrogen on the other hand, the cylinder pressure just keeps going up, the more you pump into the cylinder. So to store any quantity, you need a very high storage pressure. For example, a G-size cylinder of hydrogen has an internal volume of about 50 litres. For those who may not know, G-size is the common large welding cylinder that stands about chest height. Empty, they weigh about 40kg. These are aluminium cylinders. You can’t use steel because prolonged contact with hydrogen makes it brittle. At their 14 MPa pressure limit, they hold about 6,000 litres of hydrogen, compressed into a 50 litre space. They are saying that a car with a range of around 600 to 800 km would need to store 5kg of hydrogen. That 6,000 L of hydrogen in a G-size cylinder, only weighs 0.5kg. So the car would need 10 G-size cylinders. That’s 500 litres of cylinder volume, weighing 400kg. That’s an incredible load for a small car, and it would take up a lot of space. If you reduced the weight by using fewer but bigger cylinders, the space occupied becomes bigger, because they have to be cylindrical. You could increase the cylinder wall thickness to allow a higher storage pressure, but that adds more weight. Therefore the only way to get the sort of pressure needed to store 5kg of hydrogen in a smaller lighter container, is to use complex cylinders relying on things like carbon fibre reinforced resins. But even then, this can probably only be used as an outer case to add strength because the hydrogen molecule is so small, it easily escapes through many materials.
    Leaking pressurized hydrogen can self-ignite, and the flame is invisible. Not on a molecular scale, but a leak from the fuel system. But my concern is not about exploding hydrogen due to a fire, but a tank failure in a serious road accident. The figures Toyota was quoting were in the vicinity of 30 MPa to 40 MPa. That would make a massive bang without any ignition of the hydrogen. So no problem with heavy vehicles where the tank(s) can be well protected. But in a small private passenger car driving in today’s or tomorrow’s traffic. No thankyou.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Others store the hydrogen in a cryogenic container.
    BOC worked with BMW on experimental liquid hydrogen cars in Germany, 25 years ago. But never brought them to market. Too expensive. Yes, if you store the hydrogen as a cryogenic liquid, it takes up far less space at quite low pressure, but the tank is incredibly expensive and complex and still needs good collision protection. You don’t want liquid hydrogen leaking in or under a crashed car. The temperature of liquid hydrogen at atmospheric pressure is 253 deg.C. It would be a bit warmer under pressure in the tank. That’s nearly 60 degrees colder than liquid nitrogen, and only 20 degrees warmer than absolute zero. A lightweight cryogenic tank capable of being installed out of the way in a passenger car, would have to compromise its insulation to some extent. No insulation is perfect anyway. So if you didn’t drive your car frequently, you would find its tank losing gas. It would need to be safely vented away. You could go away for a week or so and come home to find your fuel tank empty.
    But again, it could be done on large commercial vehicles that are in regular use. It’s been done before with LNG – liquefied natural gas. (Basically methane). Natural gas can run a modified diesel engine very nicely and very economically, until the price went through the roof, thanks to our short-sighted export deals. Although LNG is much warmer ( -160 deg.C), it still requires a vacuum insulated cryogenic tank. You start the engine on diesel and then switch to natural gas when it has warmed up. Murray Goulburn ran a lot of their milk tanker fleet on LNG from 2007 until a few years ago when the price became ridiculous. Incidentally, in the 1980s, the Bell St. Bus Company in Preston ran a number of their buses on compressed natural gas as a trial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Seeing Australia invented the safe transportation of hydrogen strategy/technology, maybe that will be part of the vehicle storage method.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-...ntial/10082514
    No they're two different systems. The CSIRO method uses the hydrogen to produce ammonia, which liquefies under pressure and is easily transported safely in bulk. When it gets to its destination, say Japan, the ammonia would be cracked into hydrogen and nitrogen. The nitrogen would be released back into the atmosphere and the hydrogen would be compressed or liquefied. Not something that could be done on board a car.
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    ^^^^ thanks for all that detailed information.
    It’s interesting that Toyota is so battery resistant; more determined to push hybrid and fuel cell. Giving away their hybrid IP seems somewhat of a desperate attempt at ‘recruitment’.


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    Default Franco-German self defence alignment

    It seems when an LPG powered vehicle is involved in a fire/explosion, the media always refer to the tank exploding.
    My understanding is that although the leaked gas might explode, the tank simply flares off.
    Has a steel tank ever exploded like a bomb?.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    It seems when an LPG powered vehicle is involved in a fire/explosion, the media always refer to the tank exploding.
    My understanding is that although the leaked gas might explode, the tank simply flares off.
    Has a steel tank ever exploded like a bomb?.


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    Every taxi I've seen after a fire has an intact LPG tank. There was a burnt out taxi out the front of a Moorabbin depot for many years.

    All auto LPG tanks have a metering valve on the outlet line. I understand fill lines have a check valve. Both, limit or prevent the rate of flow if a line ever ruptures.

    Personally I consider LPG a safer fuel than ULP. I'd think compressed hydrogen to be the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Thanks Jo,

    I can now confirm that I am no longer a type 2 diabetic.

    Thanks to losing around 8 kg and subscribing to a local gymnasium.

    I've now totally given up sugar (and nearly all white bread).

    However I still indulge a a spoon of honey on my morning porridge.

    I've also discovered that the "prick and soak strip test" for blood sugar is only very approximate.

    I have to say I'm feeling far better after making the effort.

    cheers

    Rob

    Sorry to Nagaman for the off topic foray. Some things never change.
    Really great news Rob! Perhaps you could explain a bit more in a new thread? It would be useful for many over 60 (and younger)given that type II is really common in the older age range but under diagnosed.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5708305/
    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
    Stephen Hawking

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Really great news Rob! Perhaps you could explain a bit more in a new thread? It would be useful for many over 60 (and younger)given that type II is really common in the older age range but under diagnosed.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5708305/
    I can't take full credit for the reduction blood sugar.

    I should have mentioned that my GP put me on very low dose of metformin as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I can't take full credit for the reduction blood sugar.

    I should have mentioned that my GP put me on very low dose of metformin as well.
    But have you ceased taking your metformin?

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    No I'm still taking 500 mg metformin daily and I'm likely to on that for very long time.

    My diabetes is, in part, hereditary from my father's side of the family. So diet will never be the entire solution.

    Fortunately my body has adjusted and I can now tolerate the tablet without stomach upsets and diarrhea.

    For the record blood sugars decreased more rapidly after diet modification and exercise. Initially metformin alone did very little to alter blood sugars.

    For me, It's a case of belt braces and the side effects aren't likely to worry me in my remaining lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Every taxi I've seen after a fire has an intact LPG tank. There was a burnt out taxi out the front of a Moorabbin depot for many years.

    All auto LPG tanks have a metering valve on the outlet line. I understand fill lines have a check valve. Both, limit or prevent the rate of flow if a line ever ruptures.

    Personally I consider LPG a safer fuel than ULP. I'd think compressed hydrogen to be the same.
    The Tulla fire crews, as an exercise way back in the early 70s, set an old LPG taxi on fire just to prove the fact of their safety.
    The venting pipe is fundamentally important though........something tradies need when transporting their gas cutting equipment. That’s when they ‘explode’ otherwise.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    The Tulla fire crews, as an exercise way back in the early 70s, set an old LPG taxi on fire just to prove the fact of their safety.
    The venting pipe is fundamentally important though........something tradies need when transporting their gas cutting equipment. That’s when they ‘explode’ otherwise.


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    Tradies, specifically refrigeration mechanics and plumbers have a history of the most spectacular explosions.

    Several times it has been linked omitting to turn off the acetylene cylinder before loading the vehicle.

    The sensible people keep their oxy sets restrained, outside enclosed space.

    The outcome is predictable, especially with a few refrigerant cylinders in the mix as well.

    LPG gas cylinders aren't the primary cause in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    It seems when an LPG powered vehicle is involved in a fire/explosion, the media always refer to the tank exploding. My understanding is that although the leaked gas might explode, the tank simply flares off.
    Has a steel tank ever exploded like a bomb?.
    Not to my knowledge, but it does happen in third world countries. You're right, explosions are rare here and it's the ignition of the escaped gas, not the tank exploding. The reporting is usually quite bad with these sorts of things. I read and hear errors like that all the time when the subject is something I know a lot about. And that makes me wonder how often there are errors regarding things I know little about.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Every taxi I've seen after a fire has an intact LPG tank. There was a burnt out taxi out the front of a Moorabbin depot for many years.
    All auto LPG tanks have a metering valve on the outlet line. I understand fill lines have a check valve. Both, limit or prevent the rate of flow if a line ever ruptures.

    Personally I consider LPG a safer fuel than ULP. I'd think compressed hydrogen to be the same.
    I agree Rob, regarding LPG and petrol, but not hydrogen. LPG and hydrogen couldn't be more dissimilar.
    You can store a large quantity of LPG at quite low pressure in a thin-walled cylinder.
    Hydrogen requires very high pressure to store a useful quantity. Heavy thick cylinders, or high-tech damage-sensitive thick cylinders.
    LPG has twice the density of air, so it falls to the ground as well as dispersing into the surrounding air. It hangs around.
    On the plus side, its flammability limits in air are only between 2% and 10%. Less than 2% and the mixture is too lean to explode, and above 10%, the mixture is too rich to explode.
    The range for hydrogen however is from 4% to 75%. But on the plus side, its density is 1/14 that of air. Half that of helium. So when released, it goes straight up very quickly, like a brick goes down. So unless you have a well sealed compartment or something impermeable for it to be trapped beneath, it's not going to accumulate and mix with the air.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Tradies, specifically refrigeration mechanics and plumbers have a history of the most spectacular explosions.
    Several times it has been linked omitting to turn off the acetylene cylinder before loading the vehicle.
    The sensible people keep their oxy sets restrained, outside enclosed space.
    The outcome is predictable, especially with a few refrigerant cylinders in the mix as well.
    LPG gas cylinders aren't the primary cause in this case.
    Spot on, Rob. Here's a plumber's Hilux in the '80s. The guy survived. He hadn't turned the acetylene off at the cylinder valve and backed off the regulator. Only turned off at the torch. Acetylene leaked slowly overnight, dispersing throughout the van. When he opened the door the next morning, the tiny spark created in the door switch for the interior light ignited it. He was very lucky. The door blew open on its hinges, throwing him out of the way.
    There was a similar instance in Chelsea Heights (Melb.) about 10 years ago. This time, as they approached, they pressed the remote central locking button while they were still some distance away. Again, the vehicle was destroyed beyond recognition, with parts of it scattered around the neighbourhood, on roofs and through windows. They were saved by distance and having a ute between them and the van. The guy said he usually unlocked the van with the key in the door. The press reported that the acetylene cylinder exploded. Despite their photos showing singed but perfectly intact acetylene and oxygen cylinders on the ground behind the van.

    Acetylene is slightly less dense than air. Close enough to make no real difference. But its flammability limits are broader than hydrogen. 2.5% to 85%. It's dangerous stuff and gets handled very casually by most tradies, because they've been using it for years and nothing has ever gone wrong. But they never know how often they've come close to disaster.

    Plumber's van a.jpg
    Last edited by WLB; 5th May 2019 at 07:30 PM. Reason: typos

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    Have a read of: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...32:0046:en:PDF

    Presumably Australia has and will in the future continue to follow European standards.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank#Type_IV


    TBH I'd be confident of metal tank (steel or aluminium) enclosed in aramid and carbon fiber rated to twice working pressure and capable of surviving the "bonfire test"

    It's simply a case, with apologies to WS Gilbert

    My object all sublime
    I shall achieve in time—
    To let the punishment fit the crime,
    The punishment fit the crime;

    Or more basically expressed, design the tank to suit the need.

    BTW I would have thought a gas, which has a molecular weight less than air would safer than a gas like propane. I'd think Hydrogen would disperse far more readily and safely than propane.

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    There were some truly frightening sights in the 70s Melbourne LPG era, such a black valiant with the gas bottle strapped to the pack rack and the supply hose strapped to the A pillar.


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