German Quality
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 52
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: German Quality

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default German Quality

    Although it's popular to bag French quality nowadays an interesting example of German design and manufacturing quality is on show in the Weekly Times. The Victorian department DELWP has bought 300 Benz G Wagons at a cost of $90,000 each for forest fire fighting. The AWU that represents the fire fighters says they are dangerous and not fit for purpose. In smoke they reduce power and will not do more than 40kmh. Great for escapes. Engines have been replaced in 40 at under 20,000k's because the filtration can't handle smoke and dust. They won't go into reverse in FWD and suffer random engine cut outs. MB says no problems if they are maintained and operated according to specs. Which is don't leave the bitumen and don't leave Germany. So not only French makers have problems and awful service is not a problem unique to importers of French vehicles. The designers at MB should spend some time with the old Hinos that slug away in vile conditions on fire grounds for week after week with minimum care.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Nagambie
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    Ahhh, if only we didn’t live in the low emissions era.
    Sensors are ready to strangle (limp mode) a modern diesel at the mearest hint of a problem .
    They’ve killed the rugged reliability of old.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    shanadoo likes this.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    I would rather be in an Isuzu FTS 750 4WD truck commonly used for cat 1 bushfire vehicles. They are tough and they work.

    A Benz G is surely a bit light? What does it replace?.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    They are a new category of vehicle for DLWEP. Larger than the old "pigs" mostly Land Cruiser and HiLux trays with tanks. They have reorganized their fire fighting force.
    Ok so their euro sensors can't handle smoke - but how hard is it to copy an air filtration system that works? Does this mean the military version shuts up shop in battle?
    Last edited by Russell Hall; 27th March 2019 at 07:34 PM.
    505604 and DeeCee like this.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    So these are cat 9 light tanks to replace Landrovers/Landcruisers/Hiluxes/etc? First to the fire, then unable to leave? The older vehicles have "traditional" diesels.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Nagambie
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    They are a new category of vehicle for DLWEP. Larger than the old "pigs" mostly Land Cruiser and HiLux trays with tanks. They have reorganized their fire fighting force.
    Ok so their euro sensors can't handle smoke - but how hard is it to copy an air filtration system that works? Does this mean the military version shuts up shop in battle?
    Emissions legislation doesn’t apply to battle tanks.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Essendon
    Posts
    609

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Emissions legislation doesn’t apply to battle tanks.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    And it should not be apply to "emergency vehicles"!

    The "purchaser" is responsible to set the brief/specifications of their requirements and if those requirements are contrary to environmental legislation then it is up to those organisations to seek dispensation.

    What they purchase must be fit for purpose!

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Nagambie
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAJEA View Post
    And it should not be apply to "emergency vehicles"!

    The "purchaser" is responsible to set the brief/specifications of their requirements and if those requirements are contrary to environmental legislation then it is up to those organisations to seek dispensation.

    What they purchase must be fit for purpose!
    I guess the problem is down to available production ‘dirty’ vehicle supply or qualified ‘desmog’ engineering capacity.
    I assume a fire truck is basically the adaption of a relatively clean commercial vehicle which is potentially the problem sometimes.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,577

    Default

    I tried unsuccessfully to sell Turbocharged UD trucks to the CFA in a former life. They said turbocharging was not reliable in ultra high temperatures because it relied on an intercooler. The V6 G wagon is turbocharged.......................
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    The heavy tankers of the CFA fleet were 4 tonne 4x4 Hinos and Isuzus. They actually work extremely well in harsh conditions, very high temps and thick smoke and ash. So do the diesel pumps. They didn't let people down and lives depended upon them. The problems with the G Wagons are unknown with the older designs. These new problems hark back to the old petrol tankers and memories of the 11 fire fighters who died in 1983 because of a vapour lock in a petrol Inter. I wonder if there were proper trials before the purchase. The inability to fit the engine with a proper air filtration system is simply bad engineering. Are all modern diesels doomed to be as useless in the very situations we need their reliability?

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,577

    Default

    Mercedes G Wagons have a history.....
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/131418/...alian-outback/
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    This is a Landcruiser based light tanker in the Hawkesbury. Can the Mercedes fit all this on board?
    cat9.jpg

  13. #13
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,046

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Ahhh, if only we didn’t live in the low emissions era.
    Sensors are ready to strangle (limp mode) a modern diesel at the mearest hint of a problem .
    They’ve killed the rugged reliability of old.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I think the decision to go with MB was based more on the CFS wanting to wait for the fire to come to them rather than expend a lot of time, fuel and effort by going out to the fire.

    John
    UFO likes this.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Mackay
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Amazing that CFA didnt have a number of test units to trial in real fireground conditions before approving a major purchase?

    Sent from my LG-H930 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    __________________
    2007 C5 2.2 HDi
    2004 C5 2.0 HDi Estate

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    Not CFA but DWELP (formerly DSE) for a government fire fighting force that operates on crown land. Let's just say they are not highly regarded by all CFA members.
    SA Forestry has invested more than any other body in high priced trucks. They designed a specialist truck called the RFW that had a fire proof cabin and could survive great heat. A convoy was caught in a fire and the air hoses burned locking the brakes on. That used to be the thing that stopped diesels in fire not the heat. Serious casualties but no lives lost so Forestry scrapped all the trucks. Bought a fleet of ultra expensive vehicles which were a modified Bushmaster. Opinion was they would be very good when the problems were sorted out. Modern bureaucrat controlled fire fighting keeps the men away from the fire front because it's dangerous. But that's another question.
    Kim Luck likes this.

  16. #16
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,046

    Default

    Maybe with all new fire fighting acquisitions, those that signed off on the deal should be required to serve one full bush fire season at the sharp end and produce a report on how the acquisition performed in real life compared to the reasons for its purchase.

    John
    JoBo and DeeCee like this.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,577

    Default

    Men used to go and fight fires with rakes and burlap sacks. At the firefront. Sometimes it doesn't matter who or what is fighting a fire, the fire will overcome everybody and everything. I've seen the aftermath of big fires in Victorian forests, road signs and Armco melted down to the ground. Yet within a few weeks, every burnt tree had an outgrowth of greenery. After the last big one, I saw trees who'd had their bark burned completely off, meaning that the fire was way hotter than anything they've encountered before. These trees don't come back, and there are huge stands of these dead trees in several forests close to Melbourne. That, I might say, is particularly sobering. There is not an effective mechanical device made that can survive these new and ultra hot fire events at ground level.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    Actually when Zetor tractors Slovakia lost their army tank contracts they made a T62 based remote control fire fighting vehicle that could go into the hottest part of a fire. Limited demand although remote controlled tanks put out the Iraqi oil wells. Of course fire fighters don't put themselves in a position to be trapped in high fuel fires but that doesn't mean men and vehicles don't fight in conditions of high heat that can melt plastic door handles off trucks. Machines have to be up to that. Fires are highly dangerous but can be survived as they always have been. It's a modern myth that fires are ultra hot or more severe than earlier times.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    435

    Default

    So, this has nothing to do with German quality. It is simply that they are designed for very low emissions, as are all cars in europe, and that doesn't work well in the middle of a bush fire. Sounds like the fault of the chaps who bought the vehicles for the fire service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I've seen the aftermath of big fires in Victorian forests, road signs and Armco melted down to the ground..
    That is pretty remarkable - a wood fire melted steel.
    Last edited by 1972Ren; 29th March 2019 at 02:52 AM.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    Steel is usually deformed bbecause of the downward shift in strength as it is heated, but metals can melt. From the CSIRO:
    A bushfire is one of the most terrifying natural phenomena that anyone is likely to experience in Australia. To be caught in a bushfire is to witness a true hell on earth — conditions hot enough to melt metal, heat fluxes that literally vaporise vegetation, and smoke plumes so dense they turn day into night.
    .........
    Inside the turbulent diffusion flames of a bushfire, the temperature of the reaction zone, where the volatile gases released from the thermally degrading vegetation mix with oxygen in the air and combust, can be in the order of 1600°C. The temperature of the flames themselves, however, is less than this adiabatic value, with the maximum temperature at the base of tall flames reaching approximately 1100°C due to mixing with ambient temperature air. The tips of flames are around 600°C.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    For some reason I can't add a PS. Steel melts at about 1500 degrees.

    Those who haven't fought bushfire often have no idea of what is involved. Think about the homeowner in this pic (the Warrumbungle fire - the house was saved) art-353-markbarrow-300x0.jpg

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    anywhere
    Posts
    1,676

    Default

    There is a locally famous photo of a burning cattle truck near Penola during Ash Wednesday. Driver was trapped, tried to drive through the fire front. Made it through the first then lost his air hoses in a second. Brakes went on, and the diesel was still running as it burned as he took to his heels. He survived.
    This has all to do with German design quality. For at least 50 years machinery sold in Australia has been fitted with air filtration equipment, often Australian made, that is more effective than a wet sock and allows operation in high smoke and dust conditions without wearing the engines out. As the G Wagon has a drive four wheel drive system based on old Steyr designs there is no excuse for failure to select reverse in all wheel mode. Low emission or not a vehicle has to be able to operate in conditions it is sold into and these vehicles are not fit for the Australian market.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Nagambie
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    Is there an actual Australian Emergency Services ‘market’ targeted by an international manufacturer?.
    They can put their requirements out to tender and see who responds, (beyond the local domestic specialists, who will charge an appropriate fee) there is no other choice, I would have thought.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,430

    Default

    You can see the range of vehicles commonly in use by bushfire brigades in various categories here - Fire Fighting Vehicles | Kuipers Engineering Pty Ltd. They have diesels of the traditional type.

    The common unit is the category 1 4WD truck, based on Isuzu mostly in the areas I know. There are some lightweight cat 9 4WD vehicles around for quick access to things like a spot fire, mostly Landcruisers, though when fitted out they aren't light any more. The pumps have smaller engines mounted on the tray.
    Last edited by seasink; 29th March 2019 at 01:54 PM.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Nagambie
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    You can see the range of vehicles commonly in use by bushfire brigades in various categories here - Fire Fighting Vehicles | Kuipers Engineering Pty Ltd. They have diesels of the traditional type.

    The common unit is the category 1 4WD truck, based on Isuzu mostly in the areas I know. There are some lightweight cat 9 4WD vehicles around for quick access to things like a spot fire, mostly Landcruisers, though when fitted out they aren't light any more. The pumps have smaller engines mounted on the tray.
    Is there an Australian design or is it down to each state to do their own ordering?.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Page 1 of 3 123 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •