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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Default Is this it? HYDROGEN Powered Vehicles

    Oi, Oi, Oi *

    hydrogen power, from australia?

    Hydrogen fuel breakthrough in Queensland could fire up massive new export market - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Could a Citroen D be made to run on H?

    ed

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    *apologies

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Could a Citroen D be made to run on H?
    Definitely, with a lighted match
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I really wish they'd stop wasting time and money on bloody hydrogen. It just doesn't stack up.

    All it is is a delaying strategy for those invested in ICE. Its to the car industry what CCS is to the coal industry.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/toyota-v...ith-evs-11540/
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I really wish they'd stop wasting time and money on bloody hydrogen. It just doesn't stack up.
    How about hydrogen fuel cells powering electric drive ?
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    I really wish they'd stop wasting time and money on bloody hydrogen. It just doesn't stack up.

    All it is is a delaying strategy for those invested in ICE. Its to the car industry what CCS is to the coal industry.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/toyota-v...ith-evs-11540/
    While I agree that the hydrogen energy delivery lifecycle is less efficient than that of an EV, the fact remains that there are non-recyclable byproducts of the current generation of battery systems that if left unchecked will create their own environmental crisis. Battery technology hasn't yet reached a stage where it can be considered 'green'.

    Also, while hydrogen carries it's own risks when stored in the back of a car, the current firefighting policy for electric vehicles is to treat it as a HAZMAT fire: evacuate the area, particularly downwind, and let it burn out. This can take days, as lithium-ion batteries have a habit of self-igniting, even after everything seems to be at ambient temperatures. At least when hydrogen burns in air, the main chemical produced is water, with a some nitrogen oxides.

    I see the hydrogen energy cycle as a great way of storing excess power when production exceeds demand.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    How about hydrogen fuel cells powering electric drive ?
    Have a look at the flow chart in the article I linked Its just a dumb use of electricity...
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    While I agree that the hydrogen energy delivery lifecycle is less efficient than that of an EV, the fact remains that there are non-recyclable byproducts of the current generation of battery systems that if left unchecked will create their own environmental crisis. Battery technology hasn't yet reached a stage where it can be considered 'green'.
    Nothing is completely green. H2 is worse than batteries even if only due to the energy the system wastes.

    Lithium Ion batteries are eminently recyclable - even after considering vehicle packs are capable of 20+ year lives. 10 in the car, another 10 in stationary applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    Also, while hydrogen carries it's own risks when stored in the back of a car, the current firefighting policy for electric vehicles is to treat it as a HAZMAT fire: evacuate the area, particularly downwind, and let it burn out. This can take days, as lithium-ion batteries have a habit of self-igniting, even after everything seems to be at ambient temperatures. At least when hydrogen burns in air, the main chemical produced is water, with a some nitrogen oxides.
    There are enough EVs in service for statistics to form. Rate of fires among ICE is much higher than EVs.

    Everyone freaked out about the batteries in hybrids too... Its a non issue, just a learning curve for emergency services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I see the hydrogen energy cycle as a great way of storing excess power when production exceeds demand.
    Not really. Pumped hydro or large scale batteries are much much much more efficient.
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    No-one really gives a rodent's rectum whether our fuel is "efficient". That's why we've been using oil all this time. The real question is : "Is it Cheaper than Oil'? No? Stick it!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    No-one really gives a rodent's rectum whether our fuel is "efficient". That's why we've been using oil all this time. The real question is : "Is it Cheaper than Oil'? No? Stick it!
    Once you factor in all the "costs" of oil in the long term to the broader populace, it is extremely expensive. Its only "cheap" for the individual because they pay for the rest in other ways - including with their health.
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    Indeed, by the time you factor in that EXXON and many others pay no or very little tax on their vast profits made in Australia, plus the subsidies paid by we the taxpayer for exploration and a thousand other oil industry related gifts, added to the tax we pay per litre of fuel to finance politicians' salaries and perks, petrol is probably not that inexpensive. But everything else is just a start-up and the oil industry is mature as it heads into old age. I expect any other form of energy to be just as expensive if not more so.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Probably worth considering what Toyota think? They sell a few cars around here https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...13031008a8efb4

    Is this it? HYDROGEN Powered Vehicles-toyota-fuel.jpg
    Last edited by turnbull151; 10th August 2018 at 07:09 AM.
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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Nothing is completely green. H2 is worse than batteries even if only due to the energy the system wastes.

    Lithium Ion batteries are eminently recyclable - even after considering vehicle packs are capable of 20+ year lives. 10 in the car, another 10 in stationary applications.
    The problem is that less than 5% of automotive lithium batteries at end of life are currently recycled. Even when they are, only certain metals are recovered. The rest (95%+) end up in landfill. Like I said, not there yet. As recycling becomes more economically viable than the cost of the raw materials, I'm sure this will change.

    Not to mention the energy used in the creation of the batteries in the first place. The creation of the 100kW/H battery alone in the Tesla S generates 20 tonnes of CO2. To give it some perspective, that's the same amount as is generated from driving a 1.6HDi diesel Peugeot 308 more than 200,000km. Hence, it takes a long time for the battery to become energy efficient.

    There are enough EVs in service for statistics to form. Rate of fires among ICE is much higher than EVs.

    Everyone freaked out about the batteries in hybrids too... Its a non issue, just a learning curve for emergency services.
    It's true that EVs currently have only 1/5 of the fires of a petrol car, however the study I read that from also admits that you're comparing cars generally less than 5 years old to a fleet of cars spanning the better part of a century. It's not so much the frequency of fires that concerns me, it's the consequences of one.

    Not really. Pumped hydro or large scale batteries are much much much more efficient.
    I am a big fan of pumped hydro. It is capable of some impressive efficiency figures. Plus, if it rains, it adds to the efficiency! However, it still relies on a source of excess power.

    In flat regions, where wind and solar may work well, but hydro is not much use, hydrogen could be part of a storage solution.

    Have you seen some of the new, more efficient methods of dissociation of hydrogen from water, including using solar furnaces, specially designed solar cells, spent nuclear fuel irradiation, and photocatalytic processes?

    In case it hadn't come across yet, I'm not a big fan of batteries.
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    Scotty

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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Default Is this it? HYDROGEN Powered Vehicles

    The other problem with h2 is there is no infrastructure. Electricity transport already exists.

    As for regions with no suitable hydro sites or a disinclination to use batteries, just run a high voltage power cable somewhere else. Power can be punched across any distance - there is a serious proposal from a Singapore company to set up a solar farm in the Pilbara in WA and run a dedicated cable to Singapore! Why on Earth bother converting the electrons to H2 and ship and convert back to electrons...?!!

    Storage of whatever sort is key to a modern grid. Obviously solar only works in the day, wind all the time. The excess power when solar and wind are online certainly matches demand curves to a large extent, but storage plugs the dips.


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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Wind does NOT work all the time as evidenced by blackouts in Europe when snow falls. Solar is only relatively effective if there is no cloud cover and I'm sure robmac can give you the actual figures on transmission losses by cables. Also, the Pilbara coast experiences more cyclones than any other part of Australia. Those solar panels might need to be ironclad! You are talking theory, Haakon!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Wind does NOT work all the time as evidenced by blackouts in Europe when snow falls. Solar is only relatively effective if there is no cloud cover and I'm sure robmac can give you the actual figures on transmission losses by cables. Also, the Pilbara coast experiences more cyclones than any other part of Australia. Those solar panels might need to be ironclad! You are talking theory, Haakon!
    And unfortunately you're talking in woefully simplistic terms about things you don't properly understand...

    Renewables are not an on-off thing... I'd be interested to know more about those blackouts - perhaps they were like the SA ones...?

    And ultra high voltage transmission has negligible losses over many thousand kms. For example, China is planning to sell power to Europe...
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    And unfortunately you're talking in woefully simplistic terms about things you don't properly understand...

    Renewables are not an on-off thing... I'd be interested to know more about those blackouts - perhaps they were like the SA ones...?

    And ultra high voltage transmission has negligible losses over many thousand kms. For example, China is planning to sell power to Europe...
    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Zmd-qNDvC--Xm_

    A Problem With Wind Power [AWEO.org]

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...cold-snap.html

    https://nordic.businessinsider.com/a...ensive-2016-5/

    IF windpower, coal wave and nuclear can't provide enough capacity to feed Europe during a cold snap, I guess they don't want to fund the necessary power infrastructure and will happily buy electricity from the Chinese. Providing nobody nasty cuts the cord along the way, of course! And I'm planning to sell Ice to the Eskimos...............
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Definitely, with a lighted match
    One flash and you're ash.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Zmd-qNDvC--Xm_

    A Problem With Wind Power [AWEO.org]

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...cold-snap.html

    https://nordic.businessinsider.com/a...ensive-2016-5/

    IF windpower, coal wave and nuclear can't provide enough capacity to feed Europe during a cold snap, I guess they don't want to fund the necessary power infrastructure and will happily buy electricity from the Chinese. Providing nobody nasty cuts the cord along the way, of course! And I'm planning to sell Ice to the Eskimos...............
    Not sure what your point is...? This is what gas peakers and inter connectors to other parts of the world are for.
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    You are rambling mate! You wanted info on European outages. No intervention from gas or inter connectors was available, the system was totally maxed. Your last speed-reading course seems to have decreased your "comprension" by 50%....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Then that's a grid issue, not generation. Just like SA...

    They're also old articles, I should see what the situation is these days... The Danish one is interesting. I'll be doing some work at the environment department in Oslo next month, I'll get the latest and let you know
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    The Norwegians had a good look at wind power but didn't go for it?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    The Norwegians had a good look at wind power but didn't go for it?
    They have a shit load of hydro, no need for wind.


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    Hmmmn

    Now if we could just produce some portable Nuclear reactors, that could be set up anywhere or travel anywhere, we could use our natural resources and our expertise in building and innovation. Just need to get our minions thinking nuclear, clean energy and look at the technology that has been proven and used to propel small submarines for many years (think United States) and foster our inventive nature to surpass that technology and use even better variations of nuclear.

    Why we might even be able to afford to have jetsetting insiders run around the world looking at old technology when we could make our own technology in a great leap forward by removing heads from sand and actually embracing nuclear its present advantages and future improved advantages, and on to the discovery of even better and yes safer sources of power generation. And that yet may be Hydrogen among others...


    All worthy goals IF you put aside (initially) profit making, negative thinking, and diversion from objectives that are rife in politics today.

    Damn I mentioned politics, erase that thought!

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    When the safety of static nuclear plants reach 99.999% then it may be time to investigate mobile nuclear plants, unless there is safer and less costly technology available.

    I don't believe I'm being negative, as you will surely suggest, simply basing my statement on nuclear power plants current histories.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    They have a shit load of hydro, no need for wind.


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    The Norwegians only produce about 40% of their electricity through Hydro, I believe.....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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