aussie production donk vs euros
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ruckus's Avatar
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    Icon5 aussie production donk vs euros

    Hey guys. Sorry if this annoys some people but it could get interesting.

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    I was just teaching some kids and discussing with them the merits of european engineering in production models as opposed to those of australian manufacturers.

    These kids now want to argue against me tomorrow, for a piece of oral assessment, that the top holden production car will out-perform any euro production car.

    I realise that bringing things like v12 ltd production models, Porshes etc. would obviously be the first option but to be fair I think the comparison should be made from at least fairly similar price ranges.

    So what do people think? What euro production model, coming straight out of the factory, would trounce the top SS Comodore (or what ever their best performance production car is) on any decent circuit (ie not a 1/4 mile type thing)

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckus
    Hey guys. Sorry if this annoys some people but it could get interesting.

    I was just teaching some kids and discussing with them the merits of european engineering in production models as opposed to those of australian manufacturers.

    These kids now want to argue against me tomorrow, for a piece of oral assessment, that the top holden production car will out-perform any euro production car.

    I realise that bringing things like v12 ltd production models, Porshes etc. would obviously be the first option but to be fair I think the comparison should be made from at least fairly similar price ranges.

    So what do people think? What euro production model, coming straight out of the factory, would trounce the top SS Comodore (or what ever their best performance production car is) on any decent circuit (ie not a 1/4 mile type thing)

    BMW M5 - HSVs are sold in the UK against these. Also M3, Audi S4, S3, S6 and S8, E55 Merc, Supercharged Jags, Focus Cosworth (?), Mini Cooper S, Renault Megane and Clio Sports and Clio V6, etc etc etc. And then point out they all do it on a lot less engine capacity (ie better engineering!!)
    Crappidores never have a hope on a winding circut.

    About 3 years ago, Mark Skaife drove a VT2 HSV Clubsport around the Nurburg ring (considered one the best tests of any car) against the then current M5 and E55. The HSV almost had the goods power wise (through sheer size, not finesse...) but didnt have a hope handling wise. It just couldnt keep up with the far better engineered chassis excellence of BMW and Mercedes.

    Get a copy of the last "bang for your buck" edition of Wheels or whatever - they give lap times of many Euros against SS/XR8 and 6s. A two litre Clio is quicker than an SS round a circut.
    Last edited by Haakon; 13th May 2004 at 02:42 PM.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Agree with Haakon here.....but please note....dollar per dollar(exchange rate wise)...its hard to buy literally anything OFF the floor to match the ss or the xr6 turbo in terms of perormance.......

    personally i would take the argument from a different perspective...ie..because we all know that the first thing they ll bring up is the CURRENT price of the M (mbw)...maybe it would be wiser to compare it to the oledr models on the market as a 5 or even 10 year old M will be better on track than a ss.....hell i m sure that the 540 (going back to early 90s) would be quicker 2 (maybe not)......whatever the case.....there are many current and previous euros that are much better (from just about evryu angle)....

    It might be wise to remind them about the early TOURING car races from down under and why did they end up eliminating the class....Remind them of the early volvo turbos,the bluebirds (even)....let alone the skylines......so not only did they strugle with euros but with japs 2.....

    To the credit of AU manufacturing and the skilss of the new designers both holden and ford are delivering much more....yes they are starting to charge more 2 but at least the average ford or holden fan with a bigger wallet ha s agreater choice and what appears to be better quality....still no match for euros....

    Maybe focus on the new volvo R...should be similarly priced (ignore Au prices)...maybe convert from Sweed market euro to dollar.....I m sure JUstin would know....


    cheers
    dino

    the reason i mention the volvo R (and i m sorry about that)....but it even further adds insult to injury....



  4. #4
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    BMW M5 - HSVs are sold in the UK against these. Also M3, Audi S4, S3, S6 and S8, E55 Merc, Supercharged Jags, Focus Cosworth (?), Mini Cooper S, Renault Megane and Clio Sports and Clio V6, etc etc etc. And then point out they all do it on a lot less engine capacity (ie better engineering!!)
    Crappidores never have a hope on a winding circut.
    Can I have your facts and figures please.

    here are mine (will try to locate more current tests):

    It's in the August 2000 edition of Modern Motor in conjunction with Car UK, featuring HSV GTS (A$91,200) M5 (A$198,500) AMG E55 (A$192,090) tested on the Nordschleife (20.8km long circuit) of Nurburgring.

    Here's their Datron-measured acceleration figures in brief:

    0-100kph
    GTS>5.31
    BMW>5.55
    AMG>5.56

    0-160kph
    GTS>11.70
    BMW>12.15
    AMG>12.22

    0-400 metres
    GTS>13.54 @ 176.2kph
    BMW>13.80 @ 171.9
    AMG>13.69 @ 169.9

    I'll try to give you the gist of the text, using direct quotes in italics.

    Estimated fastest lap times by Anders Olafsson who first raced here in the 1960s and since then has put more than 10,000 laps under his belt on this circuit are:
    GTS> "Between 8 minutes 10 and 8 minutes 15 seconds"
    BMW> "10 to 15 seconds slower" (BMW factory time 8.28)
    AMG> "about 8.50 to 8.55"

    Deride it as a product of rampant cubism if you will, but even in the company of a pair of twin-cam 32 valve mills, the GTS's specific power output is right up there. The M5 claims the title with 60kw/litre, but the HSV's 52.6 comfortably betters the E55's 48.1. In spite of their limiters both the Benz and the Bimmer run close to 260kph .. but the GTS is .. even faster, blowing the Germans away for outright speed. HSV has never admitted it before, but we're here to tell you the GTS has a speed limiter. It's officially set at 160 miles per hour, but there's an 'engineering tolerance' and it's a bit liberal. This is history's first genuine 265kph production Commodore - and it gets there easily.

    The GTS has all the mid-corner speed of the Germans, but doesn't need as much road under brakes. The Harrop-developed HSV Premium Brake package easily outshines the best of Germany. And it fires out of corners even harder. What's more, it's more responsive and easier to drive quickly. Remarkably .. given that much of the BMW's development was carried out on this very track .. the GTS's steering is .. better suited to this track that either of the M5's steering settings, offering feedback and accuracy. But it's the feedback from the back-end of the car that shines. The information it pumps back about how much lateral grip remains and how much more drive can be fed through the rear tyres is its key. It's the only one of the three that can be throttle-steered by even the most ham-fisted of operators. Every ounce of its performance envelope is accessible and it delivers its 300kw in completely unpretentious fashion.

    To conclude, Olafsson is quoted summing up the three cars, starting with the AMG:

    "It's quick in a straight line and there's loads of torque to pull you out of the corners, but the automatic gearbox just doesn't react fast enough and it understeers much earlier than the others. It'd be great on an autobahn, but not here. When it rained, it wasn't very easy to drive, really."

    Of the BMW:

    "There's terrific chassis balance and the engine is tremendously strong. The problem is the steering doesn't really do what you want. You don't get enough good feeling or warning from the car. In some ways it's too good. But you don't get the right message from the car in the corner. The power it makes is wonderful, but the rest of the car needs traction control to keep up. They are working against each other."

    Finally, the Holden:

    "That's a real car, that GTS, and that's a surprise to me. Honestly, I was a little bit disappointed by the Germans. There are many good things and many good parts to each of them but, driving-wise, the Holden's the better car for a pure driver. I mean, if you push the Commodore, you really get good feel to it. When you drive it, all the technology doesn't take over."
    .
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    to further insult them, point out that the "new" multi link rear end introduced on VX2 has been used on the 4 pot Omegas for 10 years, and Peugeot STOPPED using it 15 years ago after introducing it in 1967(?). A 35 year old 504 has the same style of suspension, steering and brakes as a VY SS...
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    Can I have your facts and figures please.

    here are mine (will try to locate more current tests):

    It's in the August 2000 edition of Modern Motor in conjunction with Car UK, featuring HSV GTS (A$91,200) M5 (A$198,500) AMG E55 (A$192,090) tested on the Nordschleife (20.8km long circuit) of Nurburgring.

    Here's their Datron-measured acceleration figures in brief:

    0-100kph
    GTS>5.31
    BMW>5.55
    AMG>5.56

    0-160kph
    GTS>11.70
    BMW>12.15
    AMG>12.22

    0-400 metres
    GTS>13.54 @ 176.2kph
    BMW>13.80 @ 171.9
    AMG>13.69 @ 169.9

    I'll try to give you the gist of the text, using direct quotes in italics.

    Estimated fastest lap times by Anders Olafsson who first raced here in the 1960s and since then has put more than 10,000 laps under his belt on this circuit are:
    GTS> "Between 8 minutes 10 and 8 minutes 15 seconds"
    BMW> "10 to 15 seconds slower" (BMW factory time 8.28)
    AMG> "about 8.50 to 8.55"

    Deride it as a product of rampant cubism if you will, but even in the company of a pair of twin-cam 32 valve mills, the GTS's specific power output is right up there. The M5 claims the title with 60kw/litre, but the HSV's 52.6 comfortably betters the E55's 48.1. In spite of their limiters both the Benz and the Bimmer run close to 260kph .. but the GTS is .. even faster, blowing the Germans away for outright speed. HSV has never admitted it before, but we're here to tell you the GTS has a speed limiter. It's officially set at 160 miles per hour, but there's an 'engineering tolerance' and it's a bit liberal. This is history's first genuine 265kph production Commodore - and it gets there easily.

    The GTS has all the mid-corner speed of the Germans, but doesn't need as much road under brakes. The Harrop-developed HSV Premium Brake package easily outshines the best of Germany. And it fires out of corners even harder. What's more, it's more responsive and easier to drive quickly. Remarkably .. given that much of the BMW's development was carried out on this very track .. the GTS's steering is .. better suited to this track that either of the M5's steering settings, offering feedback and accuracy. But it's the feedback from the back-end of the car that shines. The information it pumps back about how much lateral grip remains and how much more drive can be fed through the rear tyres is its key. It's the only one of the three that can be throttle-steered by even the most ham-fisted of operators. Every ounce of its performance envelope is accessible and it delivers its 300kw in completely unpretentious fashion.

    To conclude, Olafsson is quoted summing up the three cars, starting with the AMG:

    "It's quick in a straight line and there's loads of torque to pull you out of the corners, but the automatic gearbox just doesn't react fast enough and it understeers much earlier than the others. It'd be great on an autobahn, but not here. When it rained, it wasn't very easy to drive, really."

    Of the BMW:

    "There's terrific chassis balance and the engine is tremendously strong. The problem is the steering doesn't really do what you want. You don't get enough good feeling or warning from the car. In some ways it's too good. But you don't get the right message from the car in the corner. The power it makes is wonderful, but the rest of the car needs traction control to keep up. They are working against each other."

    Finally, the Holden:

    "That's a real car, that GTS, and that's a surprise to me. Honestly, I was a little bit disappointed by the Germans. There are many good things and many good parts to each of them but, driving-wise, the Holden's the better car for a pure driver. I mean, if you push the Commodore, you really get good feel to it. When you drive it, all the technology doesn't take over."
    I read the UK CAR printed version of that, and it is written with very different slant on it. They admit the VX is quick, and a suprise, but as an overall package is crude and limiting. They pointed to little things like the crappy gearbox and stuff like that that let it down.

    The one I read must have been earlier, because it was a VT, and it was slower But its been a while since I read it and I wont stand up in court over the exact facts...
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! ruckus's Avatar
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    hehehe
    volvo - they're going to love that!

    Thanks for the input guys. I was going to look at euros with a bit of age to them to be fair to the monetry factors, but also to further demonstrate my point. I want to steer them away from the pig-headed boganism that idolises useless, unrefined power in cars that seem to be built for straight line speed.

    The whole Ford vs Holden thing scares me to be honest. People born into brand loyalty?! This is supposed to be one of the defining characteristics of our 'quirky' culture (according to some advertisers, writers and film makers) ie: whether you are a Holden or a Ford person.

    Someone has to try to get them to look further than the badge of their Dad's car, so why not me eh?!

    Anyway that's enough of a whine from me

    Anyone else want to weigh into the debate?

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    This will be a very simple argument.

    The last Holden desinged car was a Kingswood.

    The last "holden" engine was in the VK Commodore

    All Holden models since have been based on German GM products with outsourced engines.

    The Gen III V8 is not made in Australia and the V6 is based on a FWD Buick V6 engine.

    IMO - Ford would be a harder argument, as the XR6T uses a completely Ford Australia designed Chassis, A Ford Australia designed and developed engine and A completely Ford Australia designed front and rear suspesion (is there any other FoMoCo RWD products using control blade???)

    Either way, for such a small market, GM and Ford do give us alot of Bang for our Buck and Car for the $$$. It's just that we don't pay $3.00 a litre for petrol here like they do in Europe......

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Motor Magazine 2003 BFYB (Wakefield Park, Goulburn)
    Clio Sport ..........($33990)...... 1:14.27
    SV8 commodore...($40940)...... 1:13.22
    XR6 falcon ..........($48035)...... 1:14.38
    GT falcon ...........($59850)....... 1:13.6
    M3 BMW .............($142000)..... 1:12.00
    HSV GTS coupe ....($96500)....... 1:11.81

    I know that the commodore is hardly the best ever car. Far from it. But it does what it was designed to do extremly well in some very trying conditions Australia represents for car manufacturers.

    The "crude" and ancient suspension setup on the older commodores allows for for low cost of the cars. I am not sure where else you can buy a production car for sub $100,000 that is based on a family sedan, carries 5 people in comfort and can match (I didnt say beat) M3, M5, SMG etc cars that cost 2 to 3 times as much.

    I am sure given the resources and open cheque book HSV (or Holden) are quite capable in designing the car that matches the Euro luxury class. but who would buy it? The technology without a purpose is money ill spent. M7 being a prime example of that. I find the SS (which btw is based on the Executive with stiffer springs, sportier seats and leather steering wheel in the VX's) quite sufficient for everyday driving as much as I found the 306Gti6 without any techno babble to detract from the beautiful chassis and pure driving pleasure Pug had to offer.

    I get a bit tired of the commodore/ford bashing people seem to do (particularly here on AF). If you want to talk about poor handling prove it by independent tests rather than you dont like the way your taxi ride felt compared to your 206gti. Lets be fair and compare apples and apples.

    OK,
    I'll step off my soapbox now.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    haven't holden just recently rid of the pushrod V8's?

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    rear suspesion (is there any other FoMoCo RWD products using control blade???)

    ....
    It is a borrowed rear end from the Focus, beefed up and modifed for driven wheels. Not an original Oz Ford thing, no.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekkie
    If you want to talk about poor handling prove it by independent tests rather than you dont like the way your taxi ride felt compared to your 206gti. Lets be fair and compare apples and apples.

    .
    I did on average 1500 km a week in BAs and VXs. So I'm not completly talking out of my butt here. Great fun in a straight line, but other wise I REALLY hated them. Was nearly killed a few times when I forgot and tried to do things in them I would usually do in my Renaults, or expected them to behave like my Renaults on high speed country roads.

    Mistareno racks up a lot of K's Oz crap as well.
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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    with respect tekkie....there are a couple of issues to consider here....

    as we r talking about engineering merit.....the mercedes,bmw, volvo, hell even saab I m sure do not apply the SAME kind of philosophy to the overall feel of the car and its build quality as is applied by locals...

    the mercs, beemers etc etc are sold all over the world in far greater numbers than the GTS u selected...which is litterally a dedicated track/street weapon....sure it flies and sure it ll impress anybody who enjoys a track drive....but look at the safety concerns,look at fuel and emmisions, look at long term reliability etc.etc so many other concerns which i m sure holden or hsv for that matter will never pay as much attentiion to...and i will not even bother getting into the quality of leather and the many other technological advances that we wont see with locals for years to come.....

    to illustrate...if we are going to GROUND the tested M why dont we strip it of all the features it has over the GTS (a track version) and than put them head to head...that would be a much fairer comparison.....

    BUT at the end of the day if i wanted a car i can readily do 250kmh (almost conrod straight speed)on a daily basis year after year with so many safety features and conviniences at hand...i know which one i d choose....

    So although the new aussie cars are great (no doubt)...there is no need for them to get cocky and proclaim victory if such a victory was based on imported designs, technological evolution and knohow.....

    ...I say go the RTS....(radial tuned suspension)......i m sure it was fine for your average eastern block car conoseour...but would never have been up to the style and quality of the french let alone the realiability of the germans....



    cheers
    dino

    i could crap on about this all day.....but i better mention...my 250s has a 160mph speedo (1970)...ohhh also comes with 4wdisc, then there is IRS (air was optional but available)...not 2 metion effectively a 4speed auto, there was fuel injection,one could just go on and on...WHAT DID FORD/HOLDEN HAVE IN 1970.....so they r catching up but it would help if they were HEADING in the same direction....


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    Fellow Frogger! Jez 405's Avatar
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    Straight off the production line, you can't go past the Mercs.
    The S600 saloon has a turbocharged 5.5 litre V12 with something insane like 800Nm of torque and does 0-100 in around 5 secs.
    The AMG models will outdo that - the new E55 AMG and SL55 AMG with the supercharged V8 does it in 4.8.
    There's a C55 AMG with an atmo 5.5litre 260kw V8 that compares favourably with any Aussie rear drive V8.
    And for sheer madness sake, there's the CL65/S65 AMG with a 1000Nm blown V12.... just perfect.

    Even the 2600kg naturally aspirated Rolls-Royce Phantom (not to mention various force-fed Bentleys) will trounce a Commodore SS with 0-100 in less that 6 seconds, but that's hardly a production car.

    There's also the 298kw, 1600kg Jaguar XJR to consider, various 4WD Audi's and who can forget the 220kw Volvo V70R?
    1987 Peugeot 205 GTI S1
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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    to be fair...as tekkie has mentioned......since this discusion is about a possible debate it is nice to consider the other side of the coin.....ie....what kind of a car would the GTS be if it was blown supercharged..call it what u will.....
    the kids will be quick to jump on this discrepancy.....na should be COMPARED with NA all being fair......

    however if they are simply talikng about what s on offer from euros than it can a be a tottally open argument where NA against BLOWN is completely justified as ther are obvious CAPACITY advantages GTS has (for eg)....

    ie...IMAGINE A 5.7 LITRE BMW V8......HOLLY [email protected]#t....THROTLE PER INLET, TUNED INLET EXHAUST, QUAD CAM ETC ETC.......mindboggling stuff.....and thats before supercharging or turboing..........maybe u can consider the good old lanci delta evo.....in groupB form did 2+ sec to 100 ON GRAVEL....street version was mid 5s and that was in early early nineties....



    cheers

    dino


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    to further insult them, point out that the "new" multi link rear end introduced on VX2 has been used on the 4 pot Omegas for 10 years, and Peugeot STOPPED using it 15 years ago after introducing it in 1967
    To be fair, Peugeot has't produced a RWD car for the last 15 years....

    There are only a few 'real' problems with a semitrailing arm rear end.

    These are:

    1, unsprung weight (the arms have to be very strong).

    Whilst a problem in a lightish car like a 3 series BMW, it's not such a big deal with a 1600+kg car like a Commodore.

    2, NVH

    These issues can be (mostly) quelled by mounting the whole unit on a subframe (like the Commodore)

    3, Geometry changes

    The Commodore rear suspension is almost a true "Trailing arm" as oposed to a Semi-Trailing arm that was used on most early-BMW's. Semi trailing arms are chastised because they can produce a camber change over bumps. This camber change is affect by the angle that the arms pivot from.

    The early BMW's had a mounting angle near enough to 15 degrees. This resulted in some major camber changes over mid corner bumps and some hairy moments usually ensued. (Think of a 15 degree monted Trailing arm as 15% swing axle)

    The Holden is more like 5 degrees (5% swing axle).I don't know what angle the 504/5 has its arms mounted at....

    As a Rule, the closer you go to a Full Trailing arm (0 degrees) the more NVH when cornering will result but the more consistent the geometry will be...

    The reason the Holden can get away with it's low angle is because the whole trailing arm/axle carrier unit is subframe isolated.

    The 'positives' of Semi-trailing arm suspension are -

    1- Simplicity

    2- Suspension Travel

    3- Cost effective

    4- Space efficiency (no high intrusive mounting points)

    5- Cost...It's a tried and proven suspension system that has proven it's worth in a car that many still consider to be the most comfortable (coventionally sprung) cars, the 504/5......

    I personally think the simplicity and predictability of a 5 degree semi trailing arm rear end is fine.

    If Puegeot had kept down the RWD road, I wonder what they would be doing now??


    Perhaps you guys should actually drive a Holden Commodore SS instead of bagging them. They are one of the few large cars that seem to really shrink around you. They really do feel quite nimble....much more so IMO than a BA Falcon....

    As Tekkie said, they aint the worlds best car, but they would probably kill most froggies down MOST given roads...and would give nearly any supposed performance sedan (read M3/M5) a good run for the $$$.


    BTW, a torsion beam rear end is basically a Full Trailing arm rear end without the coil springs.......strange I don't see you guys bagging the 205/405/306's for being ancient or having a handling problem.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I think this sums up the GM attitude to building cars and what they reckon gullible idiots will buy - this comes from the GTO (aka 2 door crappidoor) website..

    Another GTO automatic feature: Launch Mode. Shift from Park to Drive, the GTO's legendary V8 power transfers to the driveline. Even at idle, it preloads the rear wheels, setting you into the starter's blocks for instant acceleration.

    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mistareno
    .....Perhaps you guys should actually drive a Holden Commodore SS instead of bagging them. They are one of the few large cars that seem to really shrink around you. They really do feel quite nimble....much more so IMO than a BA Falcon.....
    Spot on... they do make a car that's more than just fair...

    Maybe it doesn't have quite the durability, maybe it doesn't have quite the ride sensitivity, but they do handle well and stop well. And go very well.

    And, ever since the 'Radial Tuned Suspension' era, in particular the Mk 2 RTS era of 1978/79, 'the General' has really understood what it takes to make a car ride and handle... and feel good to the driver.
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 13th May 2004 at 08:14 PM.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Well, I have only ever driven an Executive V6 VX2, and it sure as hell didnt feel small. I was constantly aware of what a big bastard it was, and I always felt very isolated from the action through the tiller. Was "nimble" enough for a big car, but not very involving. I can only asssume the different spring/shock/wheel package of an SS makes a big differance.

    AU3 Sedan was scary - way powerful, VERY tail happy, prone to nasty sideways jiggles at speed mid corner, and very floaty and vague at speed in the steering. Not nice - fun on a dirt road though (fishtail heaven )

    The BA wagon was a worry - could feel those leaves (leaf springs!! ) twist up when I booted it at 120 kph producing a nasty high speed tail waggle. VERY unpredictable handling that nearly killed me once on a high speed sweeper when the live axle couldnt keep up with a mid corner bump and the axle went airborne and the car went sideways - NOT ON (made a good noise when the tyres hit the bitumen at an angle at 120 kph ) ! The Reno hardly even noticed it when I drove it round the same corner at the same speed a week before.

    Havnt had the pleasure of BA sedan, but i hope its a lot better than an AU.
    BA motor is, I admit, a pretty nice piece of kit. VERY powerful, and surprisenly responsive. Sucked down juice like it was going out of fashion....
    Nice interior too. But ours spent as much time getting warrenty work done as the AUs did.

    These are just my observations after racking up around 50K km in various Oz cars, mostly on remote country roads where high speed handling is really tested.

    The gap b/w aussie stuff and Euro cars is pretty narrow now compared to 15 - 25 years ago I admit, but they are still not quite there.

    OK, It seems that an SS may be as quick, but I go for quality over quantity when it comes to fast cars. (all I have to do now is get a fast car )
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruckus
    These kids now want to argue against me tomorrow, for a piece of oral assessment, that the top holden production car will out-perform any euro production car.
    Yeah you show those kids!

    You better hope those kids don't remember the HSV 427 that was racing in the recent production car races. I have to admit, I absolutely hate it that HSV produced this car, in minimum numbers to meet the production car rules, to destroy the competition which included porsches, ferraris and the mosler supercar. Of course had porsche or ferrari went out and did a one-off model (building the minimum to satisfy the rules that it's a 'production car'), they would have beaten the HSV 427. However, purely for arguments sake that 'top holden production car' will out-perform pretty much any euro production car. Yes a Enzo could probably beat it, but if you stick to similar price ranges, the 427 for a whopping 250 grand will out-perform anything under half-mill from europe.

    Anyway, I understand what you're saying about people who obsess about aus cars. But I too think that aus cars are great, and from a price vs performance,features point of view, they're pretty well unmatched in my opinion. Bagging them stubbornly is as bad as those who worship them unconditionally. Aus cars have come a long way in the last few years. I'd go as far as to say they've progressed when other manufacturers have stagnated or even dropped. I reckon the gap between Aus cars and Euro/Jap has narrowed. It's only a matter of time, if we continue the way we are, we will catch up. Instead of trying to convince our kids how crap Aus cars are and how much better Euro cars are, wouldn't it be better for our economy, and our kids to show them the merits of both cars and what to aim for if they someday go to work for Holden or Ford?

    I'll always have some sort of quick, lithe euro or jap car that I can punt around the mountains and track. But there's no doubt in my mind that in a few years time, unless I win the lottery or my investments REALLY come good , that I'll have a commodore or falcon that can fit the family, and comfortably tow a boat for thousands of kms along our less-than-autobahn-like australian roads.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! 306XT's Avatar
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    When you ask what euro production model, coming straight out of the factory, would trounce the top SS Comodore. On any decent circuit??

    Any Caterham 7 (the R500 does a 3.6 to the 100) will kill most car including the so call supercar let alone a humble Comodore SS or a HSV on the track.

    And as for in the real world if a Lotus Elise can corner flatout and outrun a BMW M3 (a very competent car & my friend was very impressed and wants to trade in his M3 for a Exige if its coming to Aus) I really don't see a SS doing that. These V8s are only good for straights and they are very good at it.

    If you have to compare the SS with a euro four door, I think you will find that the Audi RS6 Avant will be pretty hard to beat with a 4L V8 twin turbo and 444 horsepower (331kW) that will propel this FAMILY Wagon to a 100 in 4.7 second. This car came third in this year PCOTY behind the CSL and the Lambo.

    But, just to let you know Holden did export the HSV GTS with a superchanger with 457hp that did a 4.5.

    Personally I will get a car that I can have fun on the back road than one that will scare the shit out of me as soon as I approach a roundabout.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Its a bit unfair also to raise the "bang for your buck" aspect of Aus cars, as the local industry is heavily propped up by the government. Compare home country price of a Euro to the local price of a local car to get a more accurate indication of the machines "value" without artificial things like import tax and tariffs or whatever.

    A Clubsport in the UK will set you back an obscene amount of cash, so much so that an M5 is not so much more.

    But I do have to give credit where credit is due - Holden do a great job given the dinosaur technology Detroit give them to work with. The next Gen Commodore will be a globally competative machine with a proper quad cam V6, a good mulit link rear end from a Caddy, and generally be more up to date. Holden will become the GM centre for rear drive platforms and will be selling a lot more cars to the US.

    I think Ford made a mistake by not engineering the BA for LHD - I reckon it would have done well in the US, a market famed for rear drive that is now short of them. Europe would have even bought a few I think (but not the wagon...)

    But I still dont like them. They are too big (seriously - how many falcadores do you see without a towbar? So much for the "I need to tow " mentality... Some people do, but most owners dont), too thirsty (oil is running out, remenber??!!!) and generally lacking finesse. Dont even get me started on Toorak tractors...

    Anyway, back to the original question of what Euros can outrun a local car - the answer is lots, and they do it with more style and satisfaction
    Besides, it not how fast you get there, its how much fun you have on the way.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    RS6 Avant ...... $225,000
    Exige ..............$99,990
    CSL.................$210,000
    Caterham7........$81,000 (32,000 pounds)
    Lamborgini........$399,000

    None of the above I'd consider mass produced when compared to SS ($50,000). Against the HSV GTO its closer to the mark.

    Caterham Lambo and Exige are hand built purpose built track cars as is the handful of the HSV 427 "prototypes". Australian built and designed MS8 Elfin would have to be included in that price as well at around $100,000.

    RS6 and CSL are special make models as is HSV but at more than twice the price.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  24. #24
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    Talk about high horses.... Clarkson loved the monaro. They are pretty solid, quick, cheap, and someone said they weren't well equipped - I consider leather, good sound system, electrics, etc, as well equipped. For ball busting performance(I don't mean 2.0 NA FWD hatch here, something that actually goes in a straight line), to $$$$, nothing matches them here.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Perhaps cost to the planet would be a good way to look at the arguement. How many tons of greenhouse gasses are produced to make each vehicle. What the energy costs of manufacturing are. Day to Day realistic fuel usage, how many of the plastics are coded for recycling, what is the company history on recyling. Worrying about straight speed is rather irrelavent in Australia where you have to be on a track or in the NT to exceed (legally) 110kph. Researching some of that sort of information may keep them occupied for longer as well as them becomeing better informed citizens with a real understanding of the costs of these products.
    Neil
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