What Science Says About Our Road Rules
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    JBN
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    Default What Science Says About Our Road Rules

    An interesting topic to listen to on the ABC.

    What science says about our road rules - Nightlife - ABC Radio

    John

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    I listened to the lot of it the other night
    That Raphael Grzebieta is a bit of a knob. They were taking about how they decide on speed limits etc - fair enough. But the purpose of it is to make it safer and survivable in a crash.
    Not once did he or anybody else mention driver training!
    At one point it was mentioned two cars approaching each other @ 80km/hr and saying that the resultant impact is about 160km/h.
    A listener called and said that it would still be equivalent to hitting a solid object @ 80 km/h. If i recall right, he agreed with both of them.
    It was late an i was sort of sleepy so i could be wrong?
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    JBN
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    Working from a basis of reducing the road toll, I would say that the first principle is to reduce crashes. No crash, no injuries. To reduce crashes, I would say driver attention is paramount, particularly in this day and age with the plethora of gadgets we have to take our attention away from the job. Following that, driver ability which should start with good training of both attitude and ability.

    Speed in itself is not a cause of a crash, but it is the determinant of the severity of the result. With moving objects on a collision course, if either speeds up or slows down a collision should be averted.

    If one looks at the Pacific Highway in NSW, which in 1989 had two very serious bus crashes (I think 35 at Grafton and 20 at Kempsey), it is interesting that in 2018 they still haven't built a 4 lane highway bypassing Grafton and only recently completed the motorway bypassing Kempsey.

    Interestingly, the speed limit of the Pacific Highway in the 1960's was Derestricted. This was on a single lane (each way) road with often a 15mph right angle corner onto a single lane wooden bridge with another 15mph corner on the other bank of the river.

    I do wonder if the author of the ABC article has ever travelled the Nullarbor or Port Augustus to Alice Springs. At 80kph, most drivers would nod off. Its bad enough in a 2CV with foot flat on the pedal at 100/110kph.

    In an unrelated incident, explain this to me: - a neighbour in a black Ford Ranger Wildtrack, with wife and child on board was hit from behind by an SUV whilst driving along (ie he wasn't stopped/slowing down but driving at normal speed. The SUV was seriously trashed, the Ford Ranger need a new tray. He reckoned the driver behind was on his phone and somehow didn't see a huge black Ford Ranger filling his windscreen. The neighbour called the cops, they asked if anyone was hurt (answer no, the airbag saved the SUV driver) so they said its a private matter between the car insurers. I would have thought anyone running into the car in front of them when it wasn't stopped or slowing down has some explaining to do.

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    At one point it was mentioned two cars approaching each other @ 80km/hr and saying that the resultant impact is about 160km/h.
    A listener called and said that it would still be equivalent to hitting a solid object @ 80 km/h. If i recall right, he agreed with both of them.
    ?
    Hi,
    I've seen this 80+80=160 idea disputed, but personally I cant see how two cars hitting head on is any different to one of them hitting a stationary one at 160. However, that admitted show pony know all John Cadogan, who claims to be an engineer, insists that it isn't. Either way, the comparison to hitting a solid object is completely irrelevant, as cars are not solid objects. Two cars each doing 80 might be worse than hitting a block of cement at 80, or maybe not. I don't see that you can know that without giving it a go and observing.

    The so called science behind setting speed limits seems to amount to this: if we make speed limits lower, then fewer, less damaging crashes will occur. Which is obviously true, but the balance between safety and practicality for society seems to be getting more and more biased away from the latter.

    Thanks
    Andy
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think JBN has nailed it.

    Lowering the speed limit is not going to change the accident rate but it may change the outcome in some accidents.

    That can not be exploited for money, so we fine people for speeding.

    I propose we fine everybody who survives a crash.

    That'll take wank tank drivers off the road one way or the other and the crash rate will go down.
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Hi,
    speed limits are indeed being reduced a lot in NSW. Virtually every stretch of road has had its speed limit reduced by 10km/h in the last decade. We now have an increasing number of highways with stretches of 80kmh zones. Lowering speed limits must, if obeyed, reduce the number of accidents. Imagine if noone could drive faster the 20 anywhere. There would be no collisions. It would just be very impractical.

    Andy.

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    and can someone please explain, why, in a country where the maximum speed limit is 110kph (give or take a small section of highway in the Northern Territory) domestic/family style cars are capable of speeds in excess of 160pkh and many others capable of even greater speeds?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Because there is a market for these. It's called a free market.

    You could of course try to convince manufacturers to make speed limited cars for our market.

    Or only allow on the market cars made here. Oh, I forgot, we don't make no cars no more.

    As you were.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    I like the 20 kph speed limit, imagine Margaret Rutherford on a girl's base model keeping up in traffic. I want one!!! Fat bastards will hate it
    4's 16's and Caravelle

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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    given that the excess speed option happens in all countries, except Germany on the autobahns perhaps, the question seems obvious;

    why do manufacturers continue to make cars that greatly exceed all speed limits?

    how is it that this matter seems never to be on any agenda?

    if speed is so damaging, limiting cars etc. to 125 kph would seem a common sense move ...
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    Edge, edge. You still want to fix the world working from the edge.

    Cars need power for acceleration. Speed is a side effect. Limiting a car's speed whilst conserving the power is not that easy, and there would inevitably be some ingenious idiot who would bypass whatever measures put in place and would manage to kill themselves, others or both.

    But we're working on it. What did you think was the most important reason behind developing autonomous cars?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Edge, edge. You still want to fix the world working from the edge.

    Cars need power for acceleration. Speed is a side effect. Limiting a car's speed whilst conserving the power is not that easy, and there would inevitably be some ingenious idiot who would bypass whatever measures put in place and would manage to kill themselves, others or both.

    But we're working on it. What did you think was the most important reason behind developing autonomous cars?
    Having uninterrupted phone conversations?

    John
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    What did you think was the most important reason behind developing autonomous cars?
    To appease Ken and eliminate his treatises on his fuel prices ?
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller View Post
    given that the excess speed option happens in all countries, except Germany on the autobahns perhaps, the question seems obvious;

    why do manufacturers continue to make cars that greatly exceed all speed limits?

    how is it that this matter seems never to be on any agenda?

    if speed is so damaging, limiting cars etc. to 125 kph would seem a common sense move ...
    Why not 30km/h then? The wowsers are saying that a pedestrian hit @ 30km/h has a good chance of surviving. Unreasonable? Not when the common acquiescence is that pedestrians are to be protected even though a lot of them walk onto roadways totally oblivious to others . What ever happened to the Darwinian principle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    To appease Ken and eliminate his treatises on his fuel prices ?
    You are taking alexander's place?
    Last week when UL was @ 155 Tom Elliot (sp?) who was in the finance industry made up a spreadsheet with all the costs to get petrol to the pump. He said that it was 20c too expensive i.e. somebody is making great profits.
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I wouldn't pretend to be in the same league as alexander. I just don't have the care factor.

    And it's very much the Forum's loss that his insight and perspectives are no longer welcome.

    Although, he became an "inconvenient reality" for a few members.
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    I miss Alexander for the same reasons as robmac.

    Getting back to speed, particularly lower speeds and pedestrian survivability, I am unable to fathom why vehicles typically weighing more than family sedans find a need to have bullbars and very solid metal bumpers when they are predominately driven in urban areas. The 2CV has metal bumpers but quite low down. If it hit a pedestrian, there is a good possibility of lower leg fractures, but the rounded, thin metal bonnet would cushion their body, particularly in the area of internal organs. Also in the case of an obese person, they are only taking on a vehicle with an empty weight of about 570 kg, close to equal weight in some cases.

    John

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Having uninterrupted phone conversations?

    John

    London to a brick the first thing people will try in autonomous cars is having sex.

    Might kill the whole idea if manufacturers/operators don't come up with a viable sanitising idea.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller View Post
    given that the excess speed option happens in all countries, except Germany on the autobahns perhaps, the question seems obvious;

    why do manufacturers continue to make cars that greatly exceed all speed limits?

    how is it that this matter seems never to be on any agenda?

    if speed is so damaging, limiting cars etc. to 125 kph would seem a common sense move ...
    Hi,
    One answer to those questions might be that it assumes high speed is the cause of accidents, but in fact very few car accidents occur with cars going faster than 125 km/h, so that sort of a limit would achieve almost nothing.

    Andy

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    Hi
    Sorry to break into the drivel. The scaryest thing I have seen for danger are the rural roads in Victoria, with an older meandering narrow roadway and a collanade of large big trees growing almost beside the roadway. Scary at night when all you can see are the two lines of trees in the lights. These roads also have full speed limits and hitting these trees would be hitting an immovable object.
    Jaahn

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    These roads also have full speed limits and hitting these trees would be hitting an immovable object.
    A practical demonstration of the necessity to have some skills and judgement in order to drive safely?

    And to be aware of fact that the maximum speed limit is not necessarily a safe speed at which to drive.

    For most, they are not at all "scary" ":they simply require commonsense to be displayed when driving.
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    I'm more worried about the wildlife hiding behind those trees, waiting to jump out in front of me.

    Roger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    I'm more worried about the wildlife hiding behind those trees, waiting to jump out in front of me.

    Roger
    Did you know a kangaroo quite easily hops down the length of a road at 40km/h ........... Nearly but not quite as unpredictable as a lycra clad cyclist ... At least the 'roes don't have 1 billion watt focused beam led lights on there helmet that will blind any car driver in the vicinity.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    A practical demonstration of the necessity to have some skills and judgement in order to drive safely?

    And to be aware of fact that the maximum speed limit is not necessarily a safe speed at which to drive.

    For most, they are not at all "scary" ":they simply require commonsense to be displayed when driving.
    Good point, but how many drivers are aware of how good their real driving skills are? Or their tires/cars/brakes/etc?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Good point, but how many drivers are aware of how good their real driving skills are? Or their tires/cars/brakes/etc?
    That is very reason for accident statistics being recorded.

    However, sadly , the people who need be cognizant of them: aren't.

    Welcome to the real world of driving.
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