The Diesel fuel question...
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Thread: The Diesel fuel question...

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default The Diesel fuel question...

    Hi People

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    I can't see if this has been asked before so - what I've been wondering if there are actually different grades of diesel in Australia (in much the same style as petrol). For example BP Ultimate petrol is a higher octane petrol but does that mean Ultimate Diesel is different to the diesel across the road?

    Or is this just a marketing ploy?

    I know we love to fret over our cars so maybe there has been some discussion about this?

    Cheer Tony

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    This topic keeps coming up. Commonwealth law prescribes the content of diesl fuel sold in Australia. All brands comply. It is much the same as in the EU, so our French diesels are designed for it.

    So companies add some magic ingredients rarely specified, and charge more for a "premium" blend. No engine maker endorses it.

    An exception is winter fuel sold in alpine areas only in winter to prevent cold weather waxing. For this you refuel locally.

  3. #3
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    The 'premium' diesel alternatives are a rort. They add cleaning compounds to the fuel, displacing some of the calorific value of the fuel. For the extra money you pay, you will get less mileage and less power from a 'premium' diesel alternative. All for the sake of removing build ups of 'dirt', which, after dismantling many diesel system components, I've not yet come across.

    You pay more for it, and use more of it.

    Replace your filters regularly and use the standard diesel (often sold as Truck Diesel).
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    UFO
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    I used BP "premium" for a few tanks and noticed no benefit. These days I know of a place on my daily journey home that is a short detour. This week I saved something like 13 cents per litre over the branded providers. The cars (C4 and C5) still deliver the same consumption levels. The place I go to had a major overhaul early this year. New inground tanks, diesel at every one of their bowsers etc. Makes my day easier.

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    Hugely expensive common rail diesels are fitted to heavy lorries and buses and do very large mileages. Professionals superintend their maintenance with detailed cost records. Have you ever seen one filled from a premium bowser?

    It's marketing magic to the gullible. The cleanliness and water-free state of the underground tank are more important.
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  6. #6
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    Thanks guys, it's just as I thought. But it's always good to check base here!

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    I used BP "premium" for a few tanks and noticed no benefit.
    As indicated in the following article, the benefit will not be in terms of performance, as the premium product has the same Cetane ratings as standard diesel IS PREMIUM DIESEL WORTH IT? - Unsealed 4X4 . The difference is in additives to clean injectors, reduced corrosion and reduce foaming. If we predominantly use our cars on long trips (like trucks) then I suppose the advantages are negated.

    I usually find that Caltex premium diesel (Vortex) at Woolworths to be the same price (or cheaper) than standard diesel at our local Shell or BP

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    Icon9 The High Diesel Pricing at present in Melbourne (among other things)!

    As a long time observer of fuel marketing here in Australia, there is a recent and disturbing trend in the push by Shell to ever higher Diesel prices, currently they have 161.9 per litre for diesel.


    Overseas of course the retail markets responded quickly to reports that Russia and the Arab oil conglomerates were removing their artificial (Cartel) restrictions on supply, so the retail markets over there responded by a lowering of fuel prices across the board.

    Not so in Australia, they soared higher. with Diesel which used to be set 12 cents a litre lower than the ULP price (though more recently approximately the same as the ULP base price) due to its lesser cost to refine to fuel standards. Now leads the pack , Ear to the ground rumours indicate that motorists are being conditioned to much higher prices and that the excuse is a radical environmental virtue signalling exercise on emissions and backed by pious appeals to flawed health studies that are being floated overseas.


    I this scenario motorists will be re-educated to change their travelling and fuel buying habits as Australia "Transitions" to a low carbon economy and buys mainly European sourced bread and butter level electric vehicles that are on the planning board and we are thus forced to move from fossil fuelled vehicles or pay the price. The fuel companies therefore can be virtuous citizens in aiding whatever government is elected as they (Labor and Liberal) have all signalled that they will fall in with whatever Paris dictates and our local fuel retail giants are aiding that upward progress of fuel pricing to kick start the mentality trend underpinning the transition.


    Only the wealthy or elite will be able to purchase high priced fuels or initially buy the virtue signalling electric vehicles like the rich mans Tesla. Of course what is not mentioned, is that Mr and Mrs average Australian who have just purchased a fossil fuelled vehicle will cop the brunt of this connivance and the fossil fuel purveyors who don't have a good track record of low or competitive pricing will have carte blanc nod and wink from all major parties and of course endorsed by the Greens, to make huge rip off profits.


    The same industry sources reckon it will take years for this to play out, with eventually subsidies to transport companies that can only use diesel fleets to deliver stock and consumer items, and that lot of subsidies will be supported by carbon exchange indulgence market between operators and that the government hopes to put a thumb on the scale to cause lower priced electric vehicle availability in the short term with government purchasing contracts, and then quick turnover of these tax free vehicles into the urban market place at a price that middle class and business owners can actually purchase.


    The plebs and poor will have to rely on the dribble down or trickle down economy to eventually be allowed access to those cheaper alternatives, but in the meantime increased local gas production will be boosted and a low level subsidised (carbon indulgence?) allowance will price maintain and cut the present shortage and high pricing for gas converted cars. There is a suggestion that this will also boost certain sections i.e. gas conversion, short term employment over the phase in periods, helping highly unionised local employment.


    Of course all this could be just furphies, but there are some disturbing signs that certain of the major oil companies are maintaining a high price push and likely higher as the ACCC shows no signs of reigning that in for the immediate benefit of motorist consumers.


    Well I have tried my best to shift my local purchases to those that give the best prices in the hope that volume sales to the lowest price outlets will cut into the worse profiteers bottom line of sales.


    This week I probably paid the highest per tank fill with Diesel but compared with the 161.9 per litre of Shell the 145.9 per litre I paid was shocking but.!!! This same outlet had 152.9 for ULP 91 and 172.9 for premium 98 and the LPG price was 69.9. Now compare that with your local Shell

    (though to be fair to shell in some of the country towns they are close to parity with the lower prices I have seen or they would have been out of business, and many are still owner traders, so sensitive to pricing, but you have to watch movement between the different offerings, ULP, Premium 95, and 98 octane)


    Yep the present upward trend seems to have all the hallmarks of convenient political collusion.


    I would love to hear reports on local fuel pricing in locations where a series of By Elections are to be held as this might reveal who is helping who, and why, or just the effect of motorist pushback on politicians and the media who seem to be helping those picking our pockets

    Ken enjoy your motoring while you can.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Default The Diesel fuel question...

    There is a useful app called ďMotorMouthĒ that shows prices of all fuels in your area.

    I find only one station reasonably nearby that is consistently cheaper for Premium diesel. Often 20c/pl less.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  11. #11
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    Read the vague marking blurbs about premium diesel and wonder at the gullibility of motorists whose cars were designed and built to run on the normal stuff. There is no consumption or power gain. They don't need cleansers, and is foaming when filling a problem worth paying extra to reduce a little?
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    As it happens, the cheapest diesel in my area (a good 8 - 10km radius) is sold at a smallish independent, and is "Premium Diesel."
    It was (more so in past months) up to 20c litre cheaper than many other outlets for any diesel fuel.
    Currently the margin has closed somewhat.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

  13. #13
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    As it happens, the cheapest diesel in my area (a good 8 - 10km radius) is sold at a smallish independent, and is "Premium Diesel."
    It was (more so in past months) up to 20c litre cheaper than many other outlets for any diesel fuel.
    Currently the margin has closed somewhat.
    Is the fuel "Premium" or was there a few spare stickers laying around that they slapped on the bowsers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Is the fuel "Premium" or was there a few spare stickers laying around that they slapped on the bowsers?
    One of my local servos advertises "Premium Unleaded Diesel"
    Last edited by Armidillo; 6th June 2018 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Is the fuel "Premium" or was there a few spare stickers laying around that they slapped on the bowsers?
    Mostly a perfume smell, I guess they will get into male and female preferred fragrances if market research indicates there is some advantage. The anti foaming is interesting as I do notice a lot of foaming and that may make a difference in the amount/volume delivered, but if all pumps are volume checked by weights and measures that should soon weed out inconsistent volumes. There is a quite a bit of anecdotal stories floating about suspicion of short litres delivered. If Government departments do their job that should result in prosecutions, though these days threats and pressure seem to be the way to go (Public shaming?) and promises then to rectify the problem without publicity. Just more testing please!


    On the fuel apps, from the papers today the ACCC seems to think this is the only way motorists can win. Get the fuel app and pick the lowest competitive station near you (not so good to those who have to travel a long way to access the price) perhaps always carry a few 20 litre cans to maximize your lowest price as I did recently.

    Most motorists are lazy, just want to fill up at their usual outlet, but a fuel app makes them feel in control. After years of watching the pea move under the thimbles of deception, you do really need to watch the whole spectrum of pricing, but then that should be the ACCC's role and it is easier for them to accuse the overseas cabal of oil producing states you know the ones that little "a" said were just good businessmen in shorting supply to boost prices.


    But maybe using an "app" to pick the lows in the artificial industry run fuel cycle is the only way that poor motorists can be allowed to feel they are winning


    Drive carefully.

  16. #16
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    The foaming occurs with agitation in the vehicle tank as it is filled, not in the bowser pump meter. Any reduction from "premium" is trivial.

  17. #17
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    Icon6 Cavitation does occur in pumps (foaming) moot point on accuracy + or minus 3%

    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    The foaming occurs with agitation in the vehicle tank as it is filled, not in the bowser pump meter. Any reduction from "premium" is trivial.
    I would in part agree seasink, however cavitation in fuel pumps does occur and in part the extent of the effect depends on the distance of the pump to the tank, preferable is the submersible pump. On the subject of cavitation one of the indicators is the noise factor in badly effected pumps. Just as an aside I have noticed some damn noisy hammering in fact, diesel pumps at some locations and how quiet some are at the newer fuel stations.


    The bottom line of course is how often the pumps are checked for accuracy to the plus or minus 3% permissible error. I note in the Wiki historical outline they give a reason why few are prosecuted and most are dealt with by way of warnings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dispenser


    https://www.flowcontrolnetwork.com/q...nosis-control/

    (article re pump cavitation causing noisy pumps sign of problem with pump).

    http://measurement.gov.au/Publicatio...el-and-LPG.pdf

    The NMI guide to those selling or buying fuel.

    Trust that adds to your knowledge.

    Ken

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