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  1. #1
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    Default future classics

    Of all the French cars past and present, which ones are people collecting and/or restoring these days?

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    I think the Citroen GS is a bit of a sleeper and one to watch.

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    Fellow Frogger! mi16_weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham66
    I think the Citroen GS is a bit of a sleeper and one to watch.
    geeze, wonder why??

    theres actually a segment of the same name (future classics) occasionally on
    bbcs top gear, i misssed it, but apparently the mi16 was featured on it!

    love to get a copy of it on video.

    Anyway...

    the DS and ID19 already are classics arent they? +2cv. The 205 deserves classic status too i reckon, no other car has ever come near it as far as filling the hot-hatch boots i reckon.

    Personally i think all frogs are classics, and id be proud to own any of them!
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    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    The 205.

    The 504 from 76 with penta front lights (not 2 round lights).

    The Alfa 105 and the Lancia Monte Carlo. (Opps they're not french).

    The 505 coz it was Pininfarina and a good looking car.

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    Cal
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    SM
    205 GTi
    504 Coupe
    1995 Mazda MX5 - 2F Race Car
    1990 Mercedes 300TE
    1990 Mercedes 230E
    1977 Jaguar XJS V12
    1971 Morris Mini 1100K
    1967 Porsche 911S
    1957 Porsche 356A Speedster Replica

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    The 205.

    The 504 from 76 with penta front lights (not 2 round lights).

    The Alfa 105 and the Lancia Monte Carlo. (Opps they're not french).

    The 505 coz it was Pininfarina and a good looking car.
    i msure you just "forgot" the mi16 there didnt you Luca?
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    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    Didn't u already mention the Mi? Coz the Mi has to be seated at the same table.

    The 504 Coupe definately Cal.. good call. Pininfarina as wel.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    True classics ??

    Not sure...

    Is there any older poogoes that fill this position

    We have:

    --possibly 205 -the first hot hatch
    --Renault 16 --the first usable/well designed large production hatchback
    --Citroen 2CV --Interconnected suspension, cheap, simple etc, etc...
    --Citroen DS/ID --hydraulic suspension, gearchange, brakes, centerpoint steering etc, etc (how many pages do we want to fill)...
    --Citroen Traction Avant --Front wheel drive, unibody contruction, terrific handling/ride comprimise for it's time.

    --Citroen SM --The ultimate DS I guess, Daravi steering
    --BX/405 16valvers ... possibly oneday, who can tell ??
    --Citroen GS ?? probably not -- Small car, hydraulic suspension, centerpoint steering etc, etc..
    --Citroen CX (though it pains me to say) probably not too Daravi steering, hyraulic suspension.

    --504/505 much the same as the CX & GS above.

    Can anyone think of any others with legitimate reason to become classics ??

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    to be a classic a car has to really stand out from the crowd and in all honesty there isn't a lot in modern day froggies that do

    as much as i like my froggies there aren't any that are going to have the same status as say a 100/6 healey or an E type jag or an alfa montreal

    or even go further back and pick any packard and it has the status and what is there in the ren/cit/pug line that stands out

    the thing with froggies is that most of them are good cars and as such tend to blend a little into each other unlike other makes where they happen to make one that is miles in front of the rest of the mediocre stuff they have made

    sure a 205 or an SM or maybe even an R16 or R8G are great cars but do they really have something that much more than the rest of the range ?

    sorry to burst the bubble a little, but in reality the cars we love and drive are going to be hard pressed to be something that outstanding that in the future or even now are goingto have the same status some models of other makes have got
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  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    to be a classic a car has to really stand out from the crowd and in all honesty there isn't a lot in modern day froggies that do

    as much as i like my froggies there aren't any that are going to have the same status as say a 100/6 healey or an E type jag or an alfa montreal

    or even go further back and pick any packard and it has the status and what is there in the ren/cit/pug line that stands out

    the thing with froggies is that most of them are good cars and as such tend to blend a little into each other unlike other makes where they happen to make one that is miles in front of the rest of the mediocre stuff they have made

    sure a 205 or an SM or maybe even an R16 or R8G are great cars but do they really have something that much more than the rest of the range ?

    sorry to burst the bubble a little, but in reality the cars we love and drive are going to be hard pressed to be something that outstanding that in the future or even now are goingto have the same status some models of other makes have got
    Hi Pugrambo,

    I think you'll find the DS is certainly in there. Your talking exotic supercars really. If Citroen had made only a handful of DS's (like Etypes, Pakards etc..), ie: only 10-20,000 of 'em were made you'd probably find they would now be highly collected high priced exotics. However 'cos the buggers made nearly 1.5million (yes million) of them, they tend to be viewed as just another car

    If they'd sold 1.5million Alfa Montreals do you think they'd be viewed as favorably as they are ?? Or would people b!tch & moan there to cramped, ride terribly, cost a fortune to keep on the road etc, etc... Especially when they can be found rotting away in paddocks all over the world (due to the sheer numbers of them made, and the high price of upkeep).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 12th May 2004 at 05:27 PM.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    classics....IMO....no matter how u define it (wether now or future...no matter numbers)

    DS, R4, R5, GS, 404, 504, SM, many others...some obvious, some unfamiliar...ie L15 obviuos...some older renaults i m clueless about...

    Either way...i wouldn t mind any of the above to restore.......but a DS is at the top of the list...

    Problem with defining 'classic" is that its done buy populace and by the journos that claim to represent the majority.....so although i believe a 205 is/will be a classic (probably highly sought after 2)...many people STILL dismiss them.....surely though if they are classifying the mx5 as a classic many other froggy wheels easily qualify.....maybe CLASSICISM is in the eye of the beholder?


    cheers
    dino

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    Some thing that makes a classic are the design cues and the 205 looks like it rolled off the show room floor last week. Like the Alfa 105 GTV is still a good looking car and a classic.

    Lancia Monte Carlo a classic and still a good looking car. I disagree with Shane that those Cits (lovely cars they are) are classics b/c they had hydraulic suspension or a Maseratti v6 engine doesn't make a car a classic.

    It's a classic from looks or it a unique car from a engineering POV.

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    Don't forget the Alpine for God's sake! That would be at the top of the list.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    ok we'll play Luca's game (ie: looks are what matters). Hmm, 205 looks very dated, we'll rule that out (I await the flaming ). However if were talking good looks I vote for:

    --Fiat 600 Multipla
    --Trabant
    --Tatra 77
    --Citroen Ami
    --Panhard Dyna

    Whooooooeeeeeee I gotta get me some

    seeya,
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    Fellow Frogger! Jack Z's Avatar
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    I'm totally biased here but consider this....

    European Car of the Year
    Drag Coefficient of 0.31
    Horizontally Opposed Flat 4 Air cooled engine
    Revs to 7500 with glee
    Then there's the Wankel Rotary version of course...
    And the C-matic semi auto....
    4 wheel Anti Dive disc brakes
    Hydropneumatic suspension
    Seats 4 x 6' Adults in comfort
    Great boot with a loading level at knee hight
    30mpg
    Just short of the maigc imperial tonne at full throttle
    And all in 1971.....

    What makes a classic....indeed?

    And before anyone makes the point that the Holden Camira was also an (Australian) car of the year... we're talking European car of the year amongst some pretty impressive competition....

    People would argue that the LP76 is a classic...or the RT Charger... Is it track success, engineering, volumes sold, exclusivity or even failure (look at the Ford Edsel)...

    There were 7 million 2cv's made with a 40 year model life... how many million VW Beetles... ?? Are we going to argue that the Toyota Corola is a classic .. why the EH Holden and NOT the HR?

    At the end of the day it's all in the eyes of the beholder... but for mine .. when you look at innovation, style, design, functionailty, and useability the humble GS has got to be up there...and the BiRotor without a doubt....

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    I wonder if the 206GTi 180 will be good enough to become a classic in 10, 15 or 20 years time?

    I Wonder which cars that are new today will we look back on in 20 years time and say "geeez those were the days, why don't they make cars like that anymore!!!?"

    As far as french classics go...if I *could* pick one from each maker they would maybe have to be...

    Citroen DS
    Peugeot 205Gti
    Renault 16
    "Do my eyes deceive me, or is Senna's Lotus sounding rough ?" - Murray Walker
    206XR 1.6ltr - SOLD
    BMW E36 325i Coupe
    73 Porsche 911RS

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    Mmmm, let me think, as far as say, post 1975 goes & not including obvious concept cars & low volume specials:

    Citroen GS, particularly Estate, one to watch!
    CX, mainly Prestige, Estates & Turbo or untouched Series 1
    BX, probably only 16V & maybe 4WD versions in Europe
    AX, maybe GT, more so in OZ I'd say
    Xantia Activa perhaps?
    XM, perhaps late model V6's or Estates

    Cant think of any Xsaras, ZX's that come to mind that could be called "classics"

    Peugeot 205GTi for sure, to a lesser extent the CTi, 205 Rally specials without a doubt, 206GTi, maybe 180 versions?
    405Mi-16, maybe? more so 4X4
    605 & 607 for sheer large car oddball flavour, more so in OZ though
    306GTi6, maybe? Definetely Cabrio's
    406 Coupe for sure
    505GTi's & Estates
    504's maybe in vgc
    604 for sure

    Renault Alpines without a doubt
    Fuegos to some extent?
    19 & Megane Cabrios maybe?
    5GT & rally versions for sure
    Last model 4's
    Doubt any 20, 21, 25 or 30's will become "classics"

    Bound to have forgotten some but thats my worth!
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    1000+ Posts Luca's Avatar
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    I've changed my mind..... any car can be a classic even a bloody CX2200 if u wait 50 years.

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    I'll defy anybody to pick a classic whilst it is still fairly mainstream.
    In the past I've owned amongst others; a 1939 Graham Paige (ever heard of one of them?) a Triumph 3T Motor bike, a Triumph Tiger 120 Trophy a Norton S2 and a BSA Super Road Rocket. I had a mate who owned a Pontiac Straight 8 Coupe, worked for a guy who owned a custom made Holden Convertible and an Austin A90 Atlantic as well as a string of Alfas and Pontiacs; all simply traded or wrecked without giving them a second thought. Even the Falcon GTHO Phase 3 (Shaker) I had as a drive car when I was managing the car yard in Ipswich Road Moorooka was sold to the first buyer to come along and make an offer somewhere near the asking price. I've seen Armstrong Sidley Sapphires sold for $150 in good nick and a heap of other "collectables" almost given away
    I think that where a car becomes a collectable, it is usually something that has either been popular but made in small numbers, popular when new but not when secondhand and as a result only a small percentage have survived any long term ownership or has a quirky innovation that makes them stand out from the rest.
    This is why in Cits, the DS is getting there, so is the 2CV. The GS and CX will to a degree but particularly more in the c-matic versions. The Renaults back from the era of Dauphines with the electric clutch and the Pugs with the 203, 403 and 404 for a variety of reasons. The 604 perhaps for an outstanding example.
    The BX should if the percentage of cars left in existence is small in comparison to the 2.5 million that were originally manufactured. The 16 Valve should if for no other reason than it was the first unashamedly performance car mass produced by Citroen, looked different and only about 15,000 produced worldwide and so many have been cannibalised for their mechanicals that I understand they are becoming almost a rareity in countries where they were popular. The XM & Xantia possibly due to their Active hydraulic suspensions. The 205GTi due to its "pocket rocket" reputation and almost cult status.......and after all that little rave, it'll possibly be something like the C5 or Feugo that ends up being the most popular collectable of all; that's how difficult it is to pick a collectable in the long term.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca
    I've changed my mind..... any car can be a classic even a bloody CX2200 if u wait 50 years.

    No way man... Something like that was crap when it was new . It ain't going to improve with age. All it will become is an old piece of crap. Hell, there are sad bastards here who think a BMC landcrab is a "Classic".

    Some people just don' t understand.

    Furture Pug classics? Not many.

    203
    205 GTi
    405 Mi16

    Bugger all else
    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

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    1000+ Posts zykyra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    No way man... Something like that was crap when it was new . It ain't going to improve with age. All it will become is an old piece of crap. Hell, there are sad bastards here who think a BMC landcrab is a "Classic".

    Some people just don' t understand.

    Furture Pug classics? Not many.

    203
    205 GTi
    405 Mi16

    Bugger all else
    THEMS FIGHTIN' WORDS!

    Perhaps a new quote could be "Classics are in the eye of the beholder"!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by zykyra
    THEMS FIGHTIN' WORDS!

    Perhaps a new quote could be "Classics are in the eye of the beholder"!!!
    Oui!!!

    95 MI16
    71 404 U10 ute
    66 404 coupe
    55 203C (gently warmed) gone... sold...

  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    No way man... Something like that was crap when it was new . It ain't going to improve with age. All it will become is an old piece of crap. Hell, there are sad bastards here who think a BMC landcrab is a "Classic".

    Some people just don' t understand.

    Furture Pug classics? Not many.

    203
    205 GTi
    405 Mi16

    Bugger all else
    Thems fighting words. Obviously you have never been in, and most certainly never had to get somewhere quickly if you think a CX2200 is an "old piece of crap, even when new". Do you know what one even looks like

    I'll choose the road, and I betcha my bog standard CX2200 can easily kill any poogoe you have in the point to point times. I of course don't include Alan in this boast as he's one of the few people that could probably hustle a CX down a torturous bit of road faster than me The best bit, I'll arrive at the other end nice & comfortable and completely refreshed.

    If you ever feel the urge to see a Citroen whip your poogoes, I'll happily grab my bog standard CX out of the drive and demonstrate (if I'm not about, there always Alans son in his old BX that could probably do this too ).

    Citroens Rule

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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi 03
    No way man... Something like that was crap when it was new . It ain't going to improve with age. All it will become is an old piece of crap. Hell, there are sad bastards here who think a BMC landcrab is a "Classic".

    Some people just don' t understand.

    Furture Pug classics? Not many.

    203
    205 GTi
    405 Mi16

    Bugger all else
    Well, have you seen how much Leyland P76's can sell for? And the immortal Triumph Stag, probably the most unreliable motor vehicle ever made, still sells for $13000-$20000. Undeniably crap selling for collector car prices.

    It's hard to pick just what will be a classic, esp. amongst cars made in many hundreds of thousands. EH Holdens are considered classic, if only because so few of them are left, yet EKs & HDs are not. Strange.

    Of all the modern Peugeots (404 & later) really only the 404 stands out, as in it's day it was so much better than the competition. Citroen DS, esp the last of them, has to be a collectors car. BMW 2002, esp the Kugelfisher injection one, is another car that stood out in it's day.

    The one thing that is a safe bet is that no Volvo less than 30 years old will ever make it to collector car status.

    Barry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barryg
    Well, have you seen how much Leyland P76's can sell for? And the immortal Triumph Stag, probably the most unreliable motor vehicle ever made, still sells for $13000-$20000. Undeniably crap selling for collector car prices.

    What; even worse than a Triumph Herald or a Standard 8 or 10? Other contenders for the title; Hillman Husky, early model Toranas and Vauxhall Vivas.

    The one thing that is a safe bet is that no Volvo less than 30 years old will ever make it to collector car status.

    Barry.
    Oh I wouldn't say that; in years to come, they could be an item of intrigue on how a car that looked like that was actually bought by some people.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Z

    ....

    What makes a classic....indeed?

    ....
    Have a look at this:

    http://www.sunsetcoachmen.com/

    These guys refurbish old 505s to almost new car state & sell them. I think being starved for cars is a guaranteed way of making something a classic.

    Barry.

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