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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Default New Roadworthy Tests in the UK.

    Will Australia follow?

    New tougher MOT tests come into force - BBC News

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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    A spokesman for the RAC motoring organisation said these vehicles were often "rare classics" and well maintained by their owners so were "deemed not to be such a road risk".

    With all due respect:
    Maybe these older rare classic collector vehicles are in good pristine condition but I find this incredulous they are considered 'not such a road risk?"
    Most older vehicles are period correct & thus have next to no brakes [compared with current standards] & poor/heavy original steering arrangements. Totally unsuited to today's freeway type traffic that some enthusiasts & old vehicle owners tend to get involved with.


    The number of tradies utes & diesel Landcruiser towing type vehicles belching black unburned diesel fuel are becoming more common in the eastern states & something will be done.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Artificer View Post

    With all due respect...........Most older vehicles are period correct & thus have next to no brakes [compared with current standards] & poor/heavy original steering arrangements. Totally unsuited to today's freeway type traffic that some enthusiasts & old vehicle owners tend to get involved with.......
    With all due respect as an owner of a 30+ year old vehicle (Fuego) I am acutely aware of my cars braking ability.
    Goes and stops on racetracks without other cars crashing around me because of MY standard brakes.
    Typical crashes would occur on roads when a drip cuts in on you after cutting lanes, because they're too lazy to pull in behind you and wait......
    I would hazard a guess that they (classic car owners) are driving well within the cars capabilities as they are [email protected]&t scared of the repair if they bend them.
    Last edited by 85Fuego; 21st May 2018 at 01:20 PM. Reason: cant spell car (sob!!!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artificer View Post
    A spokesman for the RAC motoring organisation said these vehicles were often "rare classics" and well maintained by their owners so were "deemed not to be such a road risk".

    With all due respect:
    Maybe these older rare classic collector vehicles are in good pristine condition but I find this incredulous they are considered 'not such a road risk?"
    Most older vehicles are period correct & thus have next to no brakes [compared with current standards] & poor/heavy original steering arrangements. Totally unsuited to today's freeway type traffic that some enthusiasts & old vehicle owners tend to get involved with.


    The number of tradies utes & diesel Landcruiser towing type vehicles belching black unburned diesel fuel are becoming more common in the eastern states & something will be done.

    With the greatest respect green text color is a very poor choice based on legibility.

    And when "quoted" is even less legible.

    I suggest you choose other colors if want members to to be able to read your posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artificer View Post
    A spokesman for the RAC motoring organisation said these vehicles were often "rare classics" and well maintained by their owners so were "deemed not to be such a road risk".

    With all due respect:
    Maybe these older rare classic collector vehicles are in good pristine condition but I find this incredulous they are considered 'not such a road risk?"
    Most older vehicles are period correct & thus have next to no brakes [compared with current standards] & poor/heavy original steering arrangements. Totally unsuited to today's freeway type traffic that some enthusiasts & old vehicle owners tend to get involved with.


    The number of tradies utes & diesel Landcruiser towing type vehicles belching black unburned diesel fuel are becoming more common in the eastern states & something will be done.

    I'll put my old cars up against any modern family sedan you care to find. I'll make it interesting though, lets include crash stops with 2 wheels in the gravel ... and heavily corrugated surface. I'm betting my old shitboxes win handling and braking stakes hands down (with no electronic aides at all).

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Now who is going to argue with you on that score? Your CX should be able to pass the brake retardation test.

    I did note in this Autocar Test of 1976 the following ambiguous statement: "The performace of the brakes (on the CX) did not disappoint in any way giving a maximum retardation of 0.95g with 50 lb pedal pressure while showing no sign of fade. Howver, it was noticeable that the performance of the brakes when cold was very different from the results obtained when they had thoroughly warmed through."

    Does this mean they are better or worse cold?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Worse I would think.

    Since the journo states there is no sign of fade, ie worse braking when hot/ warm compared to when cold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Now who is going to argue with you on that score? Your CX should be able to pass the brake retardation test.

    I did note in this Autocar Test of 1976 the following ambiguous statement: "The performace of the brakes (on the CX) did not disappoint in any way giving a maximum retardation of 0.95g with 50 lb pedal pressure while showing no sign of fade. Howver, it was noticeable that the performance of the brakes when cold was very different from the results obtained when they had thoroughly warmed through."

    Does this mean they are better or worse cold?
    These days a lot depends upon the modern brake lining and the condition of the drums and/or rotors. As a driver you still need to drive within the characteristics of the vehicle in modern heavy traffic, and take appropriate steps to enhance safety for yourself and others on the road, as any good driver would.

    Main step in venturing out on our roads these days, is to consider all others as potential homicidal maniacs, or juvenile home invaders out for a warrior excursion on our roads (In other words be prepared for anything while driving in that "jungle")

    All else pales into insignificance IMHO!

    Ken

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    On the topic of "cold brakes".

    BMW has technology on their vehicles to keep the brake pads warm. And keep them dry too on wet roads.

    It certainly makes a difference in 3-2-1 panic stop demonstration.
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    Well I wouldn't put my 403 against any of you. It's got new linings and wheel cylinders but on the club run yesterday around Blackwood it got pretty hard to stop after a while. You really learn to keep your distance that's for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    On the topic of "cold brakes".

    BMW has technology on their vehicles to keep the brake pads warm. And keep them dry too on wet roads.

    It certainly makes a difference in 3-2-1 panic stop demonstration.
    That is assuming that the average BMW driver is even paying attention and has the reflexes to find and apply the brake pedal.
    On Citroen DS, CX, BX, Xantia, the brake pedal is BELOW the accelerator pedal when cruising, meaning that you are a split second quicker applying the brakes WITHOUT having to lift knee to chin before applying brake. With all the above cars, since the rear brakes are bled from the rear suspension (in effect dropping the tail height) they all perform well in anti-dive.

    Of course when driving thumb-in-bum-mind-in-neutral (cruise control on) goodness knows how long it takes to find the brake pedal before applying it. Couple that to having a hands free phone conversation with the girlfriend (presuming the wife isn't in the car) and occasionally being told by the Satnav where to go and you have a situation that prompts manufacturers to have auto-braking because they know many of the drivers are not paying attention.

    Technical brilliance in brake design means naught when the drivers mind is on other unrelated matters to the job of staying alive.

    In many cases, an emergency is better handled by using the accelerator to stabilise the car, rather than braking which destabilises the car. Look at what professional drivers such as rally or formula one drivers do.

    John

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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Cars from the 80's and 90's might perform reasonably well in a brake test but we're not only talking about cars from the relatively recent past but there are still numbers of cars from the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. and even earlier.
    I'm sure most of us here can remember cars from the 50's and 60's that were somewhat less impressive in the stopping prowess, particularly the Aussie built and/or American cars of the era.
    Even the HQ Holdens from the early 70's in the bog-standard Belmont trim had non-assisted drum brakes and this wasn't uncommon.
    Worked okay when cold but required some planning if you have to stop when hot.
    Fortunately, a lot of them were under-powered so ordinary braking performance wasn't as big an issue.
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    Keeping drivers on the ball and aware is the real issue. Not the age of the car.
    Last year my wife got rear ended (no euphemism). She was in between 3 Cars in an emergency stop situation. First car hit the car in front. She stopped without hitting anyone (audi A3 does have excellent brakes) but the younger driver behind sailed into our car. Driver 1 apparently was on a call, but hands free and the younger fella was watching his sat Nav!

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    Nothing like a my brakes are better then yours to stir us all up

    And their changes for classic vehicles, indicate you wont need to pass after it's 40th anniversary, providing, It has not been modified. I wonder if there will come a time when it is preferable to leave the 4 wheel drums instead of upgrading to the boosted discs in effort to avoid having to pas a mot?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...es-20-may-2018


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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Cars from the 80's and 90's might perform reasonably well in a brake test but we're not only talking about cars from the relatively recent past but there are still numbers of cars from the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. and even earlier.
    I'm sure most of us here can remember cars from the 50's and 60's that were somewhat less impressive in the stopping prowess, particularly the Aussie built and/or American cars of the era.
    Even the HQ Holdens from the early 70's in the bog-standard Belmont trim had non-assisted drum brakes and this wasn't uncommon.
    Worked okay when cold but required some planning if you have to stop when hot.
    Fortunately, a lot of them were under-powered so ordinary braking performance wasn't as big an issue.
    I seem to remember a 1960's V8 Rambler Ambassador picked by all then current Australian motoring magazines as being a car that spectacularly outperformed it's drum brakes by a significant and deadly margin. The drums on a Fiat 1100 were bigger....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Interesting story locally yesterday or Sunday in the press about the NSW Highway patrol choosing BMW and Chrysler 300C's as replacements for the Falcon and Commodore V8's. Braking performance is a key KPI and selection criteria. Both cars are effectively police specials which in some cases rely on overseas enforcement department requirements but upgraded brake packages on both current and proposed new vehicles were a big point.
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Cars from the 80's and 90's might perform reasonably well in a brake test but we're not only talking about cars from the relatively recent past but there are still numbers of cars from the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. and even earlier.
    I'm sure most of us here can remember cars from the 50's and 60's that were somewhat less impressive in the stopping prowess, particularly the Aussie built and/or American cars of the era.
    Even the HQ Holdens from the early 70's in the bog-standard Belmont trim had non-assisted drum brakes and this wasn't uncommon.
    Worked okay when cold but required some planning if you have to stop when hot.
    Fortunately, a lot of them were under-powered so ordinary braking performance wasn't as big an issue.
    Well I was driving my old shitbox from 1963 a week or so ago .... And some women in a new 3ton wank tank decided she would go around a two lane round-a-bout from the outside lane. We had both entered at the same time ... and she turned straight across my nose. She didn't even blink or notice the screaming locked tyres or horn desperately sounding while I'm white knuckled trying to avoid T boning her dead centre. Totally oblivious (unlike all the pedestrians and other car drives who watched on in amazement as the old shitbox hauled itself to a stop and managed to duck behind her new wank tank).
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    I daily drove a 1964 Chevrolet Bel Air with 4 wheel drums for a good year in Australian 2014 traffic, including Sydney on occasion.

    It was fine in 1964, and with improved roads of now, it was fine in 2014.
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    As a tradesman, very experienced with brakes & braking performance, it is enlightening to hear anecdotal stories on how great some individuals brake systems are.
    The nitty gritty is being overlooked.

    Fact is most all current brake lining materials provided aftermarket or by specialist dealers intended to be fitted to old drum brakes is really unsuited to non boosted applications.
    These current linings are way too hard, glaze easily in older systems, require considerably more application force & are quite ineffective.
    Many of these old systems e.g. Lt 15 were not brilliant in their day.
    They are considerably worse when used with current brake lining materials especially if combined with the usual maladjustment of the bottom anchors.
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    Hi,
    Is there a suitable brake lining material available for old drum brakes, and if so, what should one ask for?


    Thanks
    Andy

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    Kim, you still there?

    I'm not sure if you eastern staters know it, but we still don't have a regular roadworthy check here in the West. You only need to 'put your car over the pits' if your rego expires, or you import, do major mods or the polis give you an unroadworthy sticker.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Kim, you still there?

    I'm not sure if you eastern staters know it, but we still don't have a regular roadworthy check here in the West. You only need to 'put your car over the pits' if your rego expires, or you import, do major mods or the polis give you an unroadworthy sticker.
    Pretty much the same here in the island state
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    Strange, isn't it?


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Yes there is. Talk with an old time brake shop [the chains have no idea] about what your model vehicle is & ask can they source different friction coefficient type materials. Some are definitely more suitable for non power assisted brakes.
    There is still a manufacturer of a type of woven material that is not dissimilar to original type linings of a bygone era but minus asbestos.
    This material is used on fork lifts etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Kim, you still there?

    I'm not sure if you eastern staters know it, but we still don't have a regular roadworthy check here in the West. You only need to 'put your car over the pits' if your rego expires, or you import, do major mods or the polis give you an unroadworthy sticker.
    Is it only NSW where annual checks are still required for renewing registration?
    406 HDi

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