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  1. #76
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    Hi
    I have not read on this subject recently but the 'elephant in the room...' on diesel emissions, including particulates, is probably not road vehicles, which have regulations and can be addressed, perhaps. But it is the non road diesel engines. , these are unregulated and are everywhere and some are visually real bad. EG council tractors etc, construction equipment, farming, mining, forklifts, trains, ships, and generators etc. Disproportionate emissions compared to their numbers. Noone seem to even mention them in our context here.
    Jaahn

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    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0526084541.htm

    Anyway, point being that while there are of course many many other sources of these things, roadways are a concentration of pm2.5 and others and hence are a dosage that is harmful.

    And DPF does **** all for the really dangerous ones.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    I have not read on this subject recently but the 'elephant in the room...' on diesel emissions, including particulates, is probably not road vehicles, which have regulations and can be addressed, perhaps. But it is the non road diesel engines. , these are unregulated and are everywhere and some are visually real bad. EG council tractors etc, construction equipment, farming, mining, forklifts, trains, ships, and generators etc. Disproportionate emissions compared to their numbers. Noone seem to even mention them in our context here.
    Jaahn
    No, theyíre considered. But again, itís concentration and dosage (although workers in underground mines are not terribly well off....).

    There are emissions standards though. You wonít be able to buy two stroke whipper snippers soon for example, we have finally started aligning standards for those with the US and Europe and will stop being a dumping ground for cheap shit engines.


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    There is also a big body of work underway in the International Maritime Organisation to address air quality emissions from ships. Bunker Fuel is evil stuff, but there are plans afoot.


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    I suspect making serious progress on NOx will bring the benefits of reduced CO2 back into focus.
    Everything is a balancing act and compared to the 50s fogs we used to have from open fires things arenít so bad after all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    I suspect making serious progress on NOx will bring the benefits of reduced CO2 back into focus.
    Everything is a balancing act and compared to the 50s fogs we used to have from open fires things aren’t so bad after all.


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    No it wont. The CO2 reductions required are far greater than the very minor benefit diesel has over petrol, and its an advantage newer petrols have largely taken away anyway. Ironically via DI and turbos which have brought diesel problems to petrols...

    Its too late and the task too large to keep dicking around with ICE.

    Just because something else is worse doesn't mean this isn't bad. I don't beat my dog because my neighbour beats his kids (noting that beating dogs is actually worse...).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    No it wont. The CO2 reductions required are far greater than the very minor benefit diesel has over petrol, and its an advantage newer petrols have largely taken away anyway. Ironically via DI and turbos which have brought diesel problems to petrols...

    Its too late and the task too large to keep dicking around with ICE.

    Just because something else is worse doesn't mean this isn't bad. I don't beat my dog because my neighbour beats his kids (noting that beating dogs is actually worse...).
    Itís a transition phase weíre in. There is no giant switch we can flick to fix everything overnight.
    I look forward to BEVs and a storage bank also but at current unassisted pricing (and semi religious opposition) a BEV is a considerable time off.
    Autonomy isnít going to happen overnight either.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    It’s a transition phase we’re in. There is no giant switch we can flick to fix everything overnight.
    I look forward to BEVs and a storage bank also but at current unassisted pricing (and semi religious opposition) a BEV is a considerable time off.
    Autonomy isn’t going to happen overnight either.


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    Damn straight. Another bloody annoying trait of the naysayers is that because its not perfect now we should not still push for it... Thankfully other jurisdictions (and yes even the US under that sociopath because its mostly state driven) are more strategic and we will continue to be a technology taker - the economies of scale are being realised to meet other market demands, but we still benefit.

    Short term narrow thinking is unfortunately fashionable due to the Murdoch crap and the spate of unqualified idiots running "alternative media"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Damn straight.
    Short term narrow thinking is unfortunately fashionable due to the Murdoch crap and the spate of unqualified idiots running "alternative media"...
    Murdochís cronies didnít do science degree qualifications but are experts in opinions based on their beliefs.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Murdoch’s cronies didn’t do science degree qualifications but are experts in opinions based on their beliefs.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    There is also a big body of work underway in the International Maritime Organisation to address air quality emissions from ships. Bunker Fuel is evil stuff, but there are plans afoot. Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs
    There was a really interesting radio discussion recently about this. One of the big European shipping lines has reduced emissions by 40% or so I think, not least by just slowing down a bit and being cleverer with scheduling. They reckoned they've done all they can without new technology. In parallel, the Dutch are now starting to build electric barges for European canals and rivers, and reckon they can eliminate diesel with barges for the same cost and huge simplifications. The trends are there, aren't they? It's nice to read/hear something positive for a change.

    In parallel, I stood on a road corner in a big Chinese city ("big" is a redundant word here of course) a couple of years ago at 8 am. In 15 minutes I only saw 2-3 scooters/rickshaws that were NOT electric.

    And, delight!! Are they really going to stop sales of 2-stroke whipper-snippers? Bloody brilliant. Our neighbour has one. Mine is battery powered and just wonderful and quiet, as are a couple of other garden tools. His? Penetrates every corner of the house.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    I suspect making serious progress on NOx will bring the benefits of reduced CO2 back into focus.
    Everything is a balancing act and compared to the 50s fogs we used to have from open fires things aren’t so bad after all. Sent from my iPad using aussiefrogs
    Not so bad for us maybe, although fashionable wood burners smoke up our suburb a wee bit more these days. Not so good in India though..... I've seen a blue sky in Beijing, mind you, and the Chinese are clearly moving. It's hard to describe how bad air pollution was in Karachi and Lahore in the 1980s (Pakistan) from 2-strokes and diesels. In Quetta, when natural gas replaced coal for heating in the early 1980s the transformation was striking but the old diesels and 2-strokes were still there.... They used old sump oil in the 2-stroke mix and tended to add a bit more for safety....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post

    And, delight!! Are they really going to stop sales of 2-stroke whipper-snippers? Bloody brilliant. Our neighbour has one. Mine is battery powered and just wonderful and quiet, as are a couple of other garden tools. His? Penetrates every corner of the house.
    Not a specific "two stroke ban", but a standard such that the practical upshot is that only 4 stroke will meet it.

    http://www.environment.gov.au/protec...-and-equipment

    I have a 2 stroke Ryobi, and it is indeed a stinky bugger... Only gets used twice a year and it cost me $10 so hard to justify an electric one. Parents spent a lot on a 4 stroke Honda one years ago and its brilliant - it has torque where the 2 stroke doesnt and Mum loves it because its so easy to start! And doesnt fumigate the place so much....
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    Love our Ryobi 36V mower, blower and whipper sniper.
    At least we donít have tuk tuks to foul the air.


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    A lot of 2stroke petrol engines will be replaced iwth batteries.... which is well and good if you live in suburbia. But if you really need to do work .... You need a proper grunty 2stroke.

    eg: Ever seen a chainsaw or brush cutter that is powerful and brilliant .... but not 2stroke (sure you can buy honda 4strokes ... but they aren't as grunty as a proper 2stroke in brush cutters.... and are much heavier). I dont' think a 4stroke chainsaw even exists (as they'd be way to heavy and gutless). Electric chainsaws would be brilliant ... but your sue going to need a long extension lead

    It is a concern these days everyones houses being attached to there garages. Last year we ended up in a holiday house for several months. It sure was fun firing the poogoe 407 to back it out ( 2 story house, bottom story garage) each morning. The thing polluted the house end to end with diesel fumes.... even with all the doors shut ( none of the dpfs will be working doing a cold start).

    What stunk even worse (but was probably nowhere near as toxic) is the Range Rover doing a cold start on LPG .... They sure do run incredibly rich for the first couple of minutes until you get some heat into the converter.

    A very nice coctail to have sealed up in your house for the day. Attached garages are the stupidest thing that have ever been invented (but I'm sure poeple would rather them than have to waddle there fat arses inside from the shed or carport). I must admit, I did like being able to push a buttom and drive "inside" when it was pouring rain and freezing cold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Not a specific "two stroke ban", but a standard such that the practical upshot is that only 4 stroke will meet it.

    Emission standards for non-road spark ignition engines and equipment | Department of the Environment and Energy I have a 2 stroke Ryobi, and it is indeed a stinky bugger... Only gets used twice a year and it cost me $10 so hard to justify an electric one. Parents spent a lot on a 4 stroke Honda one years ago and its brilliant - it has torque where the 2 stroke doesnt and Mum loves it because its so easy to start! And doesnt fumigate the place so much....
    There's the rub. $10. That's the one reason we don't have an electric car. $40K or whatever for a Leaf vs $10k for a much more usable, secondhand Scenic, AFTER timing belt and fluid changes and new tyres. Still, a few years will fix that as more secondhand electrics hit the market.

    I have several Stihl garden tools - fabulous quality if pricey and one Ryobi extendable hedge trimmer. All get used occasionally and compared with the B****** 2-strokes are near-silent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    And, delight!! Are they really going to stop sales of 2-stroke whipper-snippers? Bloody brilliant. Our neighbour has one. Mine is battery powered and just wonderful and quiet, as are a couple of other garden tools. His? Penetrates every corner of the house.
    Your not going to escape the 2stroke lovers.... I'll just buy a stack cheaply when people throw them out so I have a lifetime supply. There is nothing like a nice big grunty 2stroke There is a reason why so many of us still use ancient victa 2stroke mowers after all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Your not going to escape the 2stroke lovers.... I'll just buy a stack cheaply when people throw them out so I have a lifetime supply. There is nothing like a nice big grunty 2stroke There is a reason why so many of us still use ancient victa 2stroke mowers after all.
    You're right of course, but not for suburbia. Oz has been the most urbanised country in the world for decades so most folk are there. Out of town and used regularly... Stihl started the battery range for horticulture, parks and gardens etc where noise tolerance is reducing - presumably a big market in Europe. The local shop reckons sales just climb and climb. They are good for a small chainsaw, but that's all you need most of the time as an amateur like me.

    You'll drown in obsolete and useful 2-strokes I reckon! It's a bit like driving a CX isn't it! Which I'll do this afternoon.

    Cheers
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    Attached garages are OK if done properly. Many aren't!! Ours has doors at both ends, a solid core door with seal to get into it (rarely used) and good through-ventilation. And we are on a windy hilltop in Perth of course.

    The main trouble I reckon, looking around all the new houses being built around us, is that people build an enormous house, too small a garage in the same footprint and end up with the garage full of stuff and the car(s) outside most of the time. Dismal designs.

    Cheers, and sorry to deviate from topic....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    You're right of course, but not for suburbia. Oz has been the most urbanised country in the world for decades so most folk are there. Out of town and used regularly... Stihl started the battery range for horticulture, parks and gardens etc where noise tolerance is reducing - presumably a big market in Europe. The local shop reckons sales just climb and climb. They are good for a small chainsaw, but that's all you need most of the time as an amateur like me.

    You'll drown in obsolete and useful 2-strokes I reckon! It's a bit like driving a CX isn't it! Which I'll do this afternoon.

    Cheers
    I'd buy battery everything tomorrow as they work fantastically well these days................ But NEVER will. Nothing aggravates me more than something I've used only 1/2dozne times now being useless junk as the batteries have died

    At least if it was a 2stroke.... spend 10minutes giving the fuel system a clean out and they usually fire up as good as the day you last used them

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I'd buy battery everything tomorrow as they work fantastically well these days................ But NEVER will. Nothing aggravates me more than something I've used only 1/2dozne times now being useless junk as the batteries have died

    At least if it was a 2stroke.... spend 10minutes giving the fuel system a clean out and they usually fire up as good as the day you last used them

    seeya,
    shane L
    Coming up to 4 years of zero fuel or maintenance on the 36V Ryobi .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Coming up to 4 years of zero fuel or maintenance on the 36V Ryobi .


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    Oh yes... but does it run a metal blade ... clear blackberries, shrubs upto 1cm thick and heavy grass ..... when I say brushcutter... I mean brush cutter ... not a little bent shaft whipper snipper that will be used 30seconds at a time

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Oh yes... but does it run a metal blade ... clear blackberries, shrubs upto 1cm thick and heavy grass ..... when I say brushcutter... I mean brush cutter ... not a little bent shaft whipper snipper that will be used 30seconds at a time

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Thatís what my parents use the 4 stroke Honda for. It outperforms a two stroke, way more torque.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    That’s what my parents use the 4 stroke Honda for. It outperforms a two stroke, way more torque.


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    I just bought a honda one. Its ok. But far heavier. The equivlant sized engine 2strokes are far more powerful ... (they have a power stroke every 2 cycles ... not every four cycles .... so it's a no brainer). You just get a 4stroke that has a much higher capacity engine.

    The reason I bought the honda engine thing is I just wanted something that would run after the 2stroke one I had that drove me absolutely nuts and never ran properly (I reckon there is a casting flaw in its carby somewhere). I got the much larger gx35 engine... it makes the brushcutter very heavy, you certainly need a proper 2 shoulder harness to use it for more than a few minutes. I'm guessing the 35cc 4stroke has similar power to the 25cc 2stroke ............. I'm very glad I got the larger honda motor ... as its certainly not over-powered. Just adequate. the 25cc one would have been quite underpowered (after all, its 1/3rd smaller in capacity)

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    Yeah, I dont know what size the Honda is. I do know it always starts first time every time, runs a scary big cutting disc for destroying coffee bush and is utterly reliable.

    And the nerd in me loves that its an OHC with an oil lubricated timing belt!
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