An Orbital Engine reprise
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  1. #1
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    Default An Orbital Engine reprise

    It may not be quite dead after all -

    https://driventowrite.com/2018/03/02...gine-analysis/

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    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Seems pretty dead to me. Nothing new there

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I thoght what killed them more than anything was horendous thirst for fuel!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I thoght what killed them more than anything was horendous thirst for fuel!
    To the contrary I believe orbital engines are very fuel efficient. Or that is how I recall The Inventors program in the late 70s. Where Sarich first disclosed his design to the public.

    Ralph is now a multi millionaire. Nor bad for an engine design that was sold.

    Although I believe the Orbital Engine Corporation, now makes engines for unmanned drones under contract to a Boeing subsidiary.

    Ralph now invests his millions in wind energy projects, rare earth magnets and energy storage technology.
    Last edited by robmac; 2nd March 2018 at 08:14 PM.

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    It seems that all the claims were reasonable theoretically but the translation to mass production whilst still meeting the specific tolerances in critical areas was a problem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    It seems that all the claims were reasonable theoretically but the translation to mass production whilst still meeting the specific tolerances in critical areas was a problem.


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    They certainly ain't now. Especially since the Sarich orbital is now being using as an aero engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    They certainly ain't now. Especially since the Sarich orbital is now being using as an aero engine.
    What are the emissions standards for an ultralight?.


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Clearly you are not reading all the posts in thread.

    Read post 4 and you will see why your question is irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Clearly you are not reading all the posts in thread.

    Read post 4 and you will see why your question is irrelevant.
    The article explains why translation to mass production proved problematic. Most issues around ICEs relate to meeting ever stricter emissions standards which aircraft donít have to meet.
    Thatís why his engine still went into production........just not for cars.


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    Rotax teamed up with Orbital for waterborne Sea-Do type craft.......and seems they are excellent in that role.
    Rotax make engines for ultralight aircraft but not mentioned here -

    http://www.boats.com/reviews/two-stroke-futures/


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    Sarich found his flash fuel injection system for his orbital engine was far more lucrative. He shelved the engine itself and licensed the FI technology to many companies, especially the outboard motor companies (OMC etc), allowing them to continue making high powered 2 strokes with better emissions.
    Sarich took his money and left, speculating on the Perth housing market. Like, before the mining boom.
    He did very, very well.
    Pretty much any modern high powered 2 stroke outboard has the Sarich fuel injection these days.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Orbital these days sells the injection system, but also does a bunch of very interesting engine design and engineering for specialist applications - like a two stroke twin engine for military drones that weighs nothing is economical and super tough, and a military ATV engine that will run on anything from kero to diesel to alcohol.

    I have used them for their emissions testing, and their research and industry knowledge. I work for the feds modelling greenhouse emissions and Orbital develop a number of our emissions factors. Largely derived from a study they conducted a while back test a few hundred used cars to develop a ďreal worldĒ emissions of the fleet.

    They also did emissions compliance work for HSV, and a colleague had some hybrid buses dyno tested for emissions there.

    Iíve seen the 2 litre 2 stroke DI 6 cylinder, but not running. Sounds like a v12 apparently

    A very good outfit, run by seriously talented engineers.


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    Hi
    Just some observations from history for those who have not been following the long Sarich Orbital engine history.

    The original orbital engine did not stand up to scruitiny after a serious look by engineers. It suffered from all the usual problems expected by others, despite Sarich's claims. It disappeared a long time ago. Only the name continued on

    Sarich also was displaced when the company had other money buy into it and development of various other ideas started to show some promise, as the orbital engine proved a dud. He sold out his interest and left the engineers to it. It seems they have succedded with trying to forge a different path to the establishment. Perhaps they were on a winner with their two strokes and their injection system for road cars, until the pollution and fuel crisis got bad. But the outboards liked it. But some of the big names there went bust too.

    Glad to hear they are still going and doing good work.
    Jaahn

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    I feel any engine is dead meat, too many moving parts.
    Electric Motor simple
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    I feel any engine is dead meat, too many moving parts.
    Electric Motor simple
    Together with a very long power cord......
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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Together with a very long power cord......
    A very real issue with an aero engine, as are batteries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Together with a very long power cord......
    Youíre still an idiot I see....


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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    A very real issue with an aero engine, as are batteries.
    This is likely to be one of the few applications for hydrogen. Good energy density but a very inefficient use of electricity.

    Fuel cells are no good for cars, battery tech has already outstripped the one advantage they had (short fuelling times).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    You’re still an idiot I see....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    This is likely to be one of the few applications for hydrogen. Good energy density but a very inefficient use of electricity.

    Fuel cells are no good for cars, battery tech has already outstripped the one advantage they had (short fuelling times).


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    Considering the amount of horsepower required to aviate a "proper" light aircraft and the problems of storage of hydrogen, perhaps you could elucidate as to what kind of hydrogen producing apparatus you think might provide sufficient flow to permit 1000 nautical mile flights, or are you perhaps reverting to the Hindenburg model?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Considering the amount of horsepower required to aviate a "proper" light aircraft and the problems of storage of hydrogen, perhaps you could elucidate as to what kind of hydrogen producing apparatus you think might provide sufficient flow to permit 1000 nautical mile flights, or are you perhaps reverting to the Hindenburg model?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    Just some observations from history for those who have not been following the long Sarich Orbital engine history.

    The original orbital engine did not stand up to scruitiny after a serious look by engineers. It suffered from all the usual problems expected by others, despite Sarich's claims. It disappeared a long time ago. Only the name continued on

    Sarich also was displaced when the company had other money buy into it and development of various other ideas started to show some promise, as the orbital engine proved a dud. He sold out his interest and left the engineers to it. It seems they have succedded with trying to forge a different path to the establishment. Perhaps they were on a winner with their two strokes and their injection system for road cars, until the pollution and fuel crisis got bad. But the outboards liked it. But some of the big names there went bust too. Glad to hear they are still going and doing good work. Jaahn
    Bang on the money I reckon. What they really made something of was a fuel injection system for two-strokes that Mercury took up and paid for, if I recall correctly.

    I remember a long discussion with a good mechanical engineer about the time Renault gave them a car (was it a 17?) and then they all went quiet. The problem was, he reckoned, that you couldn't scale up the thing dimensionally to get enough power through the crankshaft. Young Ralph did pretty well out of it. It was clever, as were dozens of other IC engine configurations. Only one has really worked and one nearly made it but seems to have died. The "nearly" is fabulous as an engine experience, invented by one Felix Wankel of course.

    Years ago, Phil Irvin gave a lecture in Adelaide, and a friend's father asked what his view was regarding the future of the Wankel engine. His response was, reportedly "oblivion". He also said, reportedly, that we'd spent a very long time trying seal compressed gases in cylindrical chambers and the Wankel system required sealing at corners. He had a point, but of course the real issue is thermal efficiency with a moving combustion chamber, or at least I think that's correct.

    Very interesting though. I reckon the Mazda RX7 is a fabulous car. A friend's did at least 160,000 km without any trouble.

    Cheers
    Last edited by JohnW; 6th March 2018 at 10:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Considering the amount of horsepower required to aviate a "proper" light aircraft and the problems of storage of hydrogen, perhaps you could elucidate as to what kind of hydrogen producing apparatus you think might provide sufficient flow to permit 1000 nautical mile flights, or are you perhaps reverting to the Hindenburg model?
    Extra-safe travel, airships. Don't worry too much about the Hindenberg debacle. I'm still waiting for their return. Read "Slide Rule" by one Neville Shute Norman for a wonderful description of that mode of travel. It is a great read.
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    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Extra-safe travel, airships. Don't worry too much about the Hindenberg debacle. I'm still waiting for their return. Read "Slide Rule" by one Neville Shute Norman for a wonderful description of that mode of travel. It is a great read.
    My Grandmother saw the Zeppelin in Riga Latvia many years ago.
    When she travelled back to visit 60 years later, she thought the new Boeing 747 was a "Bit Small"

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    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Extra-safe travel, airships. Don't worry too much about the Hindenberg debacle. I'm still waiting for their return. Read "Slide Rule" by one Neville Shute Norman for a wonderful description of that mode of travel. It is a great read.
    I'd be surprised if it was still in print.
    I read 'Slide Rule' around Christmas 2000 in Hanoi, having bought the homemade photocopied novel from a street seller. Dear Nev died in 1960, I didn't think he'd mind.
    Yes, a good read

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