Vehicle software - a familiar story
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    Default Vehicle software - a familiar story

    Tractors this time, but we all know the feeling - Tractor-hacking farmers in the US fight for right to repair under equality law - ABC Rural - ABC News

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Crikey.

    I absolutely knew would be heavily involved in comment in thread on this topic.

    However, you beat me to the gun creating the thread.

    All we need is the Government to get involved and insist that all repairs be done by "qualified persons".
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    You hack the car software and you have an accident.
    Bet the insurance companies won't pay.
    Unauthorised modifications to your car.

    Let's go and hack the software for Driverless Cars and see what happens.
    Hackers hijack your car. Has happened to Jeep already months ago.
    Ransomware for driverless cars, the mind boggles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    You hack the car software and you have an accident.
    Bet the insurance companies won't pay.
    Unauthorised modifications to your car.

    Let's go and hack the software for Driverless Cars and see what happens.
    Hackers hijack your car. Has happened to Jeep already months ago.
    Ransomware for driverless cars, the mind boggles.
    The "hacking" happened via an ICE internet connection. Not something that most cars have available.

    I think you are forgetting the owners who have a legitimate right to know what are the exact details of error messages.

    Knowing that an oxygen sensor is faulty and replacing it is a far cry from "hacking" the vehicle software. And has zero impact on the safety of the vehicle.

    If the manufacturers provided sensible access to diagnostic software. There would be no need to to "hack" the vehicle to gain access to the error information.

    It's all about making the vehicle owners use Authorized Dealers to service their cars.
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    The last couple of lines of the article are probably the crux of this issue. It is suggesting that the large tractor companies are trying not to actually sell the tractors outright, but rather to sell a perpetual licence to use it and the IP that is part of it. So it's more like a photocopier with a service contract than buying a car outright.

    The ACCC covered the technical info and 'pass through' software issues in its recent car industry report. They plan to take steps to ensure independent operators can access tech info and also 'pass through' software. By 'pass through', they mean something like engine software that is obtained and installed by an independent operator, but not modified by them. It's the same idea as updating BIOS by obtaining a free download from the board manufacturer.

    Emission tampering laws might make it difficult to mess about with road cars, but I don't know how off-road vehicles are regulated. Maybe, they are not, but if they have conditional registration, then maybe they are caught that way. Since many cars seem to struggle to meet the emission rules in standard trim, chipping or reprogramming them must entail some risk of failing emission requirements.

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    Plus 1 to David S's comment.

    Nobody in the article is "hacking". Every time an AF member fixes or changes something with Diagbox, they might ponder the route the software took to arrive at their place.

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    they might ponder the route the software took to arrive at their place.
    Which is a disgusting indictment of the manner in which PSA "support" their product. With, by all counts pirated copies of crappy outdated,clunky software with zero official support.

    The situation reflects the contempt that PSA feel for their DIY customers.
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    Isnít the ACCC also taking this ip business up on behalf of indie repairers as a form of restraint of trade?.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    Isn’t the ACCC also taking this ip business up on behalf of indie repairers as a form of restraint of trade?.


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    You wouldn't want to hang by delicate parts waiting for that.

    A bit like the "fuel price regulator" ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    You wouldn't want to hang by delicate parts waiting for that.

    A bit like the "fuel price regulator" ?
    Itís a bit like the depression one suffers living in the Fake News era
    with more than a little help from the Russian troll/bot factory.
    Sad times.


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    Not forgetting the material of similar ilk espoused by the POTUS himself.
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    The 2CV is now 70 years old, roughly my age. My 2CVs are half that age.

    Today mine wouldn't start. Dead as a maggot. No lights, no start, nothing. Tried another battery and bingo - life after death.

    To top it all off, none of the automotive experts want to touch it. I can see now why there is a rush to make driverless cars. Its because drivers don't want the bloody things, they have become too complex.

    John

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    The 5 pillars of the Australian automotive industry -
    https://premium.goauto.com.au/aadas-...lars-industry/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    The 5 pillars of the Australian automotive industry -
    https://premium.goauto.com.au/aadas-...lars-industry/


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    Sounds like another industry group engaging too much "self pleasuring" to me.

    And immediately the ACCC is mentioned as the watchdog/enforcer, I feel more convinced than ever.
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    The dealerships are indicating that Ďgenuineí servicing isnít needed to keep your warranty..........they donít mention ip sharing however.
    This is an international issue involving all high tech products with embedded and registered software I would think.
    Over to the courts to resolve........Nebraska, Canberra........


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    That article only emphasised the problem.
    Who is best person to keep the car running as it should? The dealer that sold it to you.
    Stated as an axiom. He skipped over the industry and DIY gripe about information being made available.

    I choked when he went on about secure computers. We all know about Diagbox.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    The dealerships are indicating that ‘genuine’ servicing isn’t needed to keep your warranty..........they don’t mention ip sharing however.
    This is an international issue involving all high tech products with embedded and registered software I would think.
    Over to the courts to resolve........Nebraska, Canberra........


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    Let's be very clear: the issue is not about the OEM turning their firmware/ embedded code into shareware .

    But is rather about providing their servicing / diagnostic software to non dealers.

    The two scenarios are quite different.
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    Default Vehicle software - a familiar story

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Let's be very clear: the issue is not about the OEM turning their firmware/ embedded code into shareware .

    But is rather about providing their servicing / diagnostic software to non dealers.

    The two scenarios are quite different.
    They claim indies are capable of doing warranty servicing.
    Or to put it another way, they donít void your warranty.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    They claim indies are capable of doing warranty servicing.
    Or to put it another way, they don’t void your warranty.



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    Nice to know.

    However in the context of this thread do they supply diagnostic software and the connection hardware to access error codes and clear fault codes. This is necessary in order to replace faulty modules and reinitialize them to enable communication with other modules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Nice to know.

    However in the context of this thread do they supply diagnostic software and the connection hardware to access error codes and clear fault codes. This is necessary in order to replace faulty modules and reinitialize them to enable communication with other modules.
    Thatís what Nebraska, Washington and Canberra and others will be fighting over in many courts for many months I imagine.Dealers being disingenuous?
    Never!


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    What? You want to fix your modern car and not leave it to a trained specialist??? That's like trying to fix your own health problem while you are not a trained specialist
    Not very wise according to some
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
    Francis Bacon

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    That's like trying to fix your own health problem while you are not a trained specialist
    Not very wise according to some
    Of course we could take our health advice from some dude on the web seemingly in "la la land".
    Espousing unproven and un-researched theories.

    JoBo, lately you never miss an opportunity to inseminate a thread with you favorite hobby horse and obsession.

    I can't help noticing your "mate" who tries the same thing has had latest attempt removed.

    Could be worth noting. In view of this being a car software thread.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    ... and withholding information for commercial advantage.
    Of course we could take our health advice from some dude on the web seemingly in "la la land".
    Espousing unproven and un-researched theories.
    You can be as deprecating as you like. You possibly can not discern the ones who have valuable knowledge and pass it on willingly and for free from the ones espousing...... In that case, it's a good idea for you to stay away from all of them on the malicious internet
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quite true Jo,

    Turn the tables and look at the manner you framed your post before becoming too critical of me.

    Perhaps, even accept that another member may possess strongly held views opposite to your own.

    And even factor in they suffer from a potentially life ending illness that has no chance of being cured or managed except by clinical means.

    "Valuable" knowledge is only valuable when it's basis has been researched and proven to be correct.

    If the "valuable" knowledge is simply some person espousing theories, without the requisite proof, then the "valuable " information remains a theory and until proven is IMO not really valuable at all.

    As always you are free to believe to anyone who takes your fancy.

    Likewise I'm free to have doubts about anything I chose.

    In that case, it's a good idea for you to stay away from all of them on the malicious internet
    Jo, the way you continue "inseminate" your strongly held beliefs into threads which are totally unrelated to your "favorite" topic makes ignoring them next to impossible.

    Like has happened today, where your strongly held beliefs are presented in a thread on vehicle firmware/ software and diagnostics.

    If you keep your posts in appropriate threads. I'm sure I would be able comply with your wishes of ignoring them. And rest assured you wouldn't see me posting in such threads.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    For all thats been written on the matter there is very little specific detail on whats prevented from being attached to a tractor by the ECU systems, some good reading here:
    https://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-hi...tmare-farmers/
    And an example that you can't install a engine outside of the original specification (even if that option was available and is supported):
    Swapping John Deere ECU modules - Frontier Power Products

    Thankfully these shenanigans haven't been seen in the motor world yet, even Tesla don't pair/lock any of their ECU or parts to each other and someone can collect all the parts second hand and reassemble a working car:
    https://hackaday.com/2017/09/20/salv...el-s-for-6500/
    Once you get access to the Diagbox software for our beloved PSA cars you can see that they will support any of the parts available at the time, and don't complain if you swap parts around. Its an interesting balance of wanting to prevent theft of the cars with a robust immobiliser (key coding etc) while still allowing easy repairs.
    406 HDi

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