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Thread: Vehicle software - a familiar story

  1. #26
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    ts an interesting balance of wanting to prevent theft of the cars with a robust immobiliser (key coding etc) while still allowing easy repairs
    .

    I have no issue with the coding the immobilizer system to the vehicle ecu to prevent substitution.

    However it is hard to justify coding every other module on the network as well.

    This is clearly an attempt to foil DIY repairs. And offers no extra security to the vehicle owner.

    But offers the dealer an opportunity to gouge the car owner.

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    More information on the ACCC’s work toward enabling the Maintenance/Repair/Overhaul by indies -
    https://premium.goauto.com.au/accc-b...ent-repairers/


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  3. #28
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Anyone heard of ELINT? COMINT? SIGINT? There are people in our community that could in theory hack just about any electronic system or at least overcome it. Manufacturers codes have to be robust enough to stop access to vehicles and engine power, otherwise your prize set of wheels can be stolen by any snotty nosed teenage geek. If that upsets you, don't buy a modern car.

    I'm reminded of that old adage, if you have to ask how much it costs to run a Rolls Royce, you can't afford one!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Anyone heard of ELINT? COMINT? SIGINT? There are people in our community that could in theory hack just about any electronic system or at least overcome it. Manufacturers codes have to be robust enough to stop access to vehicles and engine power, otherwise your prize set of wheels can be stolen by any snotty nosed teenage geek. If that upsets you, don't buy a modern car.

    I'm reminded of that old adage, if you have to ask how much it costs to run a Rolls Royce, you can't afford one!
    I don't think hacking comes in the equation.

    It's more that matter of OEMS supplying diagnostic software, which interprets the data within ECU firmware. And primary use is repair of the vehicle.

    And if the scenario you present was possible, some apprentice in a dealer workshop would already being selling the the idea to on ebay or facebook.

    Besides which, hacking a car ECU, with the only "outside connection" via a serial cable would seem pretty pointless.
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  5. #30
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    As Rob said.

    Interception of remote signals to unlock isn't hacking. Because of the attitude of car makers system hacking goes on every day so that people can service repair or modify their own property.

  6. #31
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    So you have no respect for digital rights, either? When the various planets align and digital rights legally become part of the TPP or TTIP the future for owners of dodgy software will become a brief appearance in court as the accused..........followed by a conviction.............

    I suggest you race off to your local car dealer of choice and buy your vehicle sans electronics. Then, write the software to make your car compliant with a thousand and one regulations including actual driveability and we will await the results of your progress!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    So you have no respect for digital rights, either? When the various planets align and digital rights legally become part of the TPP or TTIP the future for owners of dodgy software will become a brief appearance in court as the accused..........followed by a conviction.............
    I certainly hope the ACCC sort out the car manufacturers obligations, before the TPP happens.

    And having something written down is quite different to establishing a case of practical enforcement.
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  8. #33
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    I think the TPP will happen before the ACCC gets out of bed....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I think the TPP will happen before the ACCC gets out of bed....
    I wonder if the ACCC were subjected to the same financial cutbacks as ASIC were handed in the budget.


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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I think the TPP will happen before the ACCC gets out of bed....
    Time will tell Kim, time will tell.
    There is still a lot of work to done to reincarnate the TPP.
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  11. #36
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    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Well and good if any of us "seniors" have any Super remaining after Dollar Bill hops in for his chop.

    A new vehicle may well be out of reach for any of us relying on a SMSF to fund retirement , if the full suite of proposed policies are invoked.
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    Everyone here who has fell-off-a-truck diagnostic software will understand what Shorten's mob are on about on this. Our governments (both persuasions) have dithered far too long over this abuse. It seems as though the auto trade has finally found someone listening.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Well and good if any of us "seniors" have any Super remaining after Dollar Bill hops in for his chop.

    A new vehicle may well be out of reach for any of us relying on a SMSF to fund retirement , if the full suite of proposed policies are invoked.
    Didn't you buy a vehicle that would last you until you stop driving? Mrs Luck has told me I did!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  15. #40
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I purchased a vehicle that served our needs at the time of purchase.

    And , without Dollar Bill changing the goal posts on SMSF, have sufficient funds to upgrade when/as required.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    ...........And , without Dollar Bill changing the goal posts on SMSF, have sufficient funds to upgrade when/as required.
    Rob, I don't know quite how to inform you of this, but in life, like sailing, you get what you get. It is up to the smart ones to figure out how to make the best of changing circumstances and from experience we know that whinging about the changes does not make the boat go any faster or your life last any longer.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Rob, I don't know quite how to inform you of this, but in life, like sailing, you get what you get. It is up to the smart ones to figure out how to make the best of changing circumstances and from experience we know that whinging about the changes does not make the boat go any faster or your life last any longer.
    I guess I just suffer from seasickness.

    On the other hand, we don't have like what politicians dish out to us nor shut up and suffer in silence.

    Obviously plan B is is under development. Which possibly involves dicing our SMSF altogether. So there goes my auditors job and my accountants job.

    The major issue is that Dollar Bill hasn't disclosed the extent of his savaging of self funded (that is no money from government given or expected) retirees at this point in time.

    So it's impossible to formulate strategies to maintain ones income stream.

    Don't worry, you will dragged into it too - the transition to retirement scheme is likely to have the rug pulled from under it as well.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I guess I just suffer from seasickness.

    On the other hand, we don't have like what politicians dish out to us nor shut up and suffer in silence.

    Obviously plan B is is under development. Which possibly involves dicing our SMSF altogether. So there goes my auditors job and my accountants job.

    The major issue is that Dollar Bill hasn't disclosed the extent of his savaging of self funded (that is no money from government given or expected) retirees at this point in time.

    So it's impossible to formulate strategies to maintain ones income stream.

    Don't worry, you will dragged into it too - the transition to retirement scheme is likely to have the rug pulled from under it as well.
    Bill will need to be careful. If he savages SMSF too much he may end up having to pay additional pension top ups if incomes drop below the beautifully crafted, highly generous and totally insulting amount paid to pensioners currently. (Those who have paid taxes all their lives with some expectation of receiving a liveable pension at the end of their working days.)

    P.S: I "retired" permanently last Friday week, at 74 years and 5 months.) Now what am I going to do?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  19. #44
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    P.S: I "retired" permanently last Friday week, at 74 years and 5 months.) Now what am I going to do ?
    Spend your time trying to earn enough money to maintain your previous lifestyle ?

    With interest rates at such low figures, I can assure you it's not easy.
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  20. #45
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    Well Labor are supposed to have a policy of legislating that car companies release technical information and software to independent repairers. Not sure if there's a time constraint on this, the article in the paper was very brief.
    Given that Labor probably won't win the next election and being a Labor initiative the LNP are unlikely to support it (the only thing that has bipartisan support is pollie pay rises) so it's likely to die.

    Cheers
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  21. #46
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    I rarely hear of anyone being prepared to put up with paying a million dollars pa in tax. If I was still in the work force I would certainly volunteer to be in such a lamentable situation.


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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    I rarely hear of anyone being prepared to put up with paying a million dollars pa in tax. If I was still in the work force I would certainly volunteer to be in such a lamentable situation.


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    There are many examples of really big businesses that pay absolutely no tax. Imagine how much profit they would be making if they had to pay any at all? I wish they would all volunteer to pay something, at least.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  23. #48
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    Internal industry bickering over this IP issue -
    https://premium.goauto.com.au/war-of-words/


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  24. #49
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Make it law to have diagnostic software and web or serial interface on board the Vehicle ECU and allow users to connect via serial connection or telnet.

    Cisco et al have used the system successfully for many many years. All that is needed is dumb cable and low resource PC running telnet.
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  25. #50
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    Nice as that would be Rob, even better with a standard Linux interface like just about every other embedded system, it presents problems with interrogating the bus, which fortunately does run to a published standard. It is very different from normal computer protocols.

    If manufacturers persist in building confidential black boxes, there must at least be a published complete input/output manual as well as a standard interface. The present interface standard is deficient.

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