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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Default Diagnostic advice 1.4 petrol

    Hi all,
    Have an issue with a 2006 Berlingo 1.4 petrol, I understand this engine is in some other models and pugs as well.
    Driving out to a meal last night, car seemed down on power, like you were in a gear too high, had the AC on so thought not too much about it.
    Later driving home AC was off , and the car was way down on power, very noticeable on hills. Then about a km from home there was squeal from the engine that increased with revs. The engine has a serpentine and belt that drives power steering,alt and AC , so I thought maybe the tensioner bearing was gone.
    We have a long steep drive, car couldn't get up, no power.
    So this morning, I removed the belt and tested the various pulleys and tensioner, all were fine.
    Ran the motor again and the screeching sound was the same.
    So my guess is the tensioners on the timing belt have done a bearing, as these run on the back of the cogged timing belt.
    However how would this affect the power?
    Interestingly the timing belt and water pump were replaced by a mechanic about six weeks ago, ideas?
    Steve

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi all,
    Have an issue with a 2006 Berlingo 1.4 petrol, I understand this engine is in some other models and pugs as well.
    Driving out to a meal last night, car seemed down on power, like you were in a gear too high, had the AC on so thought not too much about it.
    Later driving home AC was off , and the car was way down on power, very noticeable on hills. Then about a km from home there was squeal from the engine that increased with revs. The engine has a serpentine and belt that drives power steering,alt and AC , so I thought maybe the tensioner bearing was gone.
    We have a long steep drive, car couldn't get up, no power.
    So this morning, I removed the belt and tested the various pulleys and tensioner, all were fine.
    Ran the motor again and the screeching sound was the same.
    So my guess is the tensioners on the timing belt have done a bearing, as these run on the back of the cogged timing belt.
    However how would this affect the power?
    Interestingly the timing belt and water pump were replaced by a mechanic about six weeks ago, ideas?
    Steve
    I have no idea, but my advice would be to contact the mechanic that did the work as there is definitely a problem and one would think it would be covered by warranty.

    I would also get your invoice and take that with you as well.
    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Hi all,
    Thanks Col for the reply, tried that but the mechanic is holidaying for another 2 weeks apparently.
    Soooo..... Thought I would investigate further as we need to use the car rather than have it parked up for weeks.
    Have taken off the plastic covers that cover the timing belt, and all auxiliaries are disconnected.
    This is what you see and hear...
    https://youtu.be/Xr8zIzJU3SA
    Can't see any discernable wearing, although the edge of the belt is brownish in spots.
    When the engine is reved the squealing occurs and there is visible smoke whisps, but very difficult to identify where it is coming from.
    As noted before the timing belt, tensioner and water pump where replaced six weeks ago but this has just arisen. The tensioner is an automated type with an indicator for correct tension, and it appears fine. However I had the old tensioner so I swapped it in. (Followed all the procedures per manual, pins in flywheel and cam pulley, turned by hand and rechecked with pins etc)
    But squeal occurs with old tensioner in place.
    Running out of ideas, thinking it could only be water pump bearing ? But it is new, and when I had the tensioner off grabbing it didn't show any sign of play.
    There is a small coolant stain at the weep hole but research says this is normal in the first 10 secs of fitting and bedding in of pump, there is no dripping here.
    Any suggestions appreciated, I can't be the first person to have this problem.
    Steve

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    COL
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    In that video you have linked on YouTube sounds like a dry bearing.

    Does your car have idler pulleys and if it does where these changed when the timing belt was done?
    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Hi Col
    The timing belt goes around the cam pulley at top, crank pulley at bottom, cogged water pump pulley and the tensioner. Pump and tensioner were new.

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    Diagnostic advice 1.4 petrol-image.jpgthe whole set up

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    COL
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    OK when you swapped the belt tensioner did you check the water pump bearings? that is spin it to see if it felt rough.

    Failing this the noise must be coming from somewhere else, you may need to track down where the noise is coming from by using a long handled screw driver or a stethoscope.

    Sorry I can't be more help, I did have a noise in a 1397 Renault engine years ago and that turned out to be a noisy rear main seal and that took some tracking down.
    Regards Col

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    While the auxiliary belt is off check that both the alternator pulley and power steering pump pulley can be turned freely. If these stick the belt has little choice but squeal, and engine power is consumed. If the alternator pulley has a one way clutch check it locks in the reverse direction also. I assume you went up the drive with the AC off.

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    Hi Steve
    Sorry about your problem. Had no direct experience so these are just general ideas.
    To pinpoint the noise better get a length of 1/4" plastic tube from the shed or hardware shop and use that to poke around the front area, carefully, with the other end in your good ear
    Does that engine have a rubber insert pulley on the bottom crank pulley drive. These can 'slip' as the rubber insert ages and even fail to drive properly. If so it may be almost failed.
    Just another thought on those rubber insert pulleys. When they slip the outer part can move sideways and it may be rubbing on the cover, or the belt may be running well off the original line and rubbing on something.
    Good luck Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 12th January 2018 at 01:45 PM.
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    Thanks for the input.
    I have another water pump on the way, I figure that if I swap it, then I know it isn't the pump or the tensioner.
    There is a pulley on the crankshaft that runs the aux belt, but this has been removed, so that is eliminated, as are all the accessories such as alt, power steering, aux tensioner, idler and AC compressor.
    Is there any way know to man kind that the crankshaft or the cam shaft can become miss aligned? In my mind I struggle to see how as they are long and we'll supported ( unlike pump and tensioner). What is acceptable crankshaft end play i.e. along the crankshaft centre line? I could imagine that it could cause misalignment of the belt?

    I will report back after new pump install
    Steve
    Last edited by Big Frog; 12th January 2018 at 02:41 PM.

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    While you are at it, check the timing Crank - Cam. It probably jumped a tooth which would explain low power.
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
    Francis Bacon

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    Thanks JoBo,
    Inserted pins in the flywheel and the camshaft pulley as per the manual when I swapped over the tensioner, all seemed good and lined up
    Steve

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    Hi Big Frog,

    Forgive me if this is a bit left field.

    One of the fundamental laws of physics is conservation of energy. Energy in = energy out.

    If the fuel is not coming out as mechanical energy, it will come out as heat, smoke or light instead.

    So perhaps try running the engine a bit and see what is heating up - either by touch or a cheapy ebay pyrometer.

    Cheers,
    Andrew

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    Hi Andrew
    Worth a try, if the new water pump isn't the solution, I have an IR meter.

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    Out of the pan and into the fire.

    Ok, after swapping some parts and numerous inspections, I was able to reject the timing belt as the source of the squealing sound.
    As I had thought that the belt was the source, I had limited the runs of the engine to short runs to see if it persisted, as I figured any running may be doing damage.
    All this was done with the aux belt off and the harmonic type pulley off as well.
    So there isn't much else turning to make noise.
    I removed the exhaust heat shield and found the squealing to be exhaust venting out thru a gap in the manifold / catalytic converter joint.
    The cat was so blocked it was forcing the exhaust out under pressure and squealing like a kettle. The smoke / dust I saw from the belt area was exhaust channelled around by the heat sheild.
    The loss of power experienced before the squeal is classic catalytic converter blogged symptom, whereas the belt was not.
    After speaking with a cit mechanic, I cleared out the cat for now, until a replacement can be sourced.
    So squealing has gone, but car runs rough, and is emitting a lot of white smoke.
    I'm thinking that the head gasket is blown , possibly from the horrible back pressure? Or maybe because these engines are prone to head gaskets going.
    Haven't observed any milky oil as yet, and inconclusive as to any bubbles in radiator tank.

    Unless I can explain the rough running or smoke (burning collant?) otherwise, looks like the head is coming off

    Steve

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    COL
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    Before you get all excited and pull the head off I would be doing a compression test at least to see what they are, the other thing you can do is a leak down test.

    These two tests will tell you what the condition of the engine is.

    After you have done these tests post your results back here and we will help you diagnose them.
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    Regards Col

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    Have it booked in for tests Monday
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    Hi all
    Left car with mechanic to do tests.

    They are perplexed, compression in all 4 cylinders is around 220, ( they couldn't find a reference for correct number ,but thought it was higher than expected.)
    Did the chemical test on coolant- no combustion gases in coolant.
    The engine is blowing plenty of smoke and using oil.
    Other observation is that all the plugs appeared wet with fuel / moisture?
    Thoughts are that it maybe sucking oil into cylinder and burning it off? Think it is unlikely to be valve seal related.
    Mechanic of 47 years says it is usually quick to work out want is wrong on an engine burning oil, but not this time.
    Suggests next step is to remove head

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    The last timing belt / water pump replacement I did on a Berlingo I had to lightly elongate the water pump mounting holes to get the impellor to spin freely. I was surprised to discover this, so things have to be carefully checked during assembly.

    The brand of new water pump used was a "Graf" that needed a little attention from a rat tail file !


    Could be something as simple as that causing the T/B to jump/strip a few teeth, hence lack of power and belt squeal !!


    Alain

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    Hi guys
    Car still with mechanic.
    Just a wild thought, is it at all possible for the air cleaner to be blocked / or partially, and it to draw more heavily on the breather and suck lots of oil from the rocker cover? Is there a pcv valve in the breather?
    Just a thought, I can disconnect the air filter and see quickly if there is lots of oil in there.
    Cheers

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    Hi there - a mate's Berlingo went through exactly the same symptoms a couple of years ago. Running badly, lost power, cat turned out to be totally blocked, compression OK. Dodgy mechanic replaced injectors (no improvement), replaced O2 sensor (little difference but old one was very sooty) and cleared out cat (ran 'ok' for 100km or so, then back to awful running). He brought it over to me & I went over it pretty thoroughly as well but could not find the problem (did compression test, coolant & filter checks etc) - but given its other issues (over 350,000 km, oil EVERYWHERE, tired shock etc, etc) - he gave up & took it to the wreckers in the end with no firm diagnosis.

    Not a lot of help - but would be very interested to know what yours ends up being caused by!

    Cheers
    Bryce
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi guys
    Car still with mechanic.
    Just a wild thought, is it at all possible for the air cleaner to be blocked / or partially, and it to draw more heavily on the breather and suck lots of oil from the rocker cover? Is there a pcv valve in the breather?
    Just a thought, I can disconnect the air filter and see quickly if there is lots of oil in there.
    Cheers
    That is a sound idea. And easy enough to do quickly at the mechanics.

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    Blocked cat may have caused overfuelling, so is the oil full of petrol and too high?
    And you need to use 95 or better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi all
    Left car with mechanic to do tests.
    They are perplexed, compression in all 4 cylinders is around 220, ( they couldn't find a reference for correct number ,but thought it was higher than expected.)
    Did the chemical test on coolant- no combustion gases in coolant.
    The engine is blowing plenty of smoke and using oil.
    Other observation is that all the plugs appeared wet with fuel / moisture?
    Thoughts are that it maybe sucking oil into cylinder and burning it off? Think it is unlikely to be valve seal related.
    Mechanic of 47 years says it is usually quick to work out want is wrong on an engine burning oil, but not this time.
    Suggests next step is to remove head
    Hi Big Frog
    While I am sympathetic I do not believe the removal of the head is ever justified, until it is proven it is really necessary. When I was young and silly and full of energy I would do that but now after a lot of experience I would say it is entirely possible that when you have the head off you might find nothing, and then you will need to find the problem without the engine running

    I would find the pollution system and disconnect, the cranckase breather too, the exhaust recirculation too, then find if there any internal ports in the manifolds also. When you have disconnected all these then see how it runs noteing that any air leaks will affect the running so plug holes.
    Then check the sensors for correct readings as these may be out of spec and giving false readings.

    After all, before you though you had the problem and it was something completely different. My limited experience with a blocked cat is it does not cause other problems when it fails but of course all systems are different. You had a manifold gasket leak to cause the squeeling so perhaps there is another one partly "gone" somewhere else.
    Good luck
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 26th January 2018 at 04:00 PM.

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    Hi David,
    The oil is being consumed. Rather being higher level from fuel, it is burning oil and blowing it out the back. After cleaning out the cat material, I took it for a run to town, it went from full on the dipstick to 2/3 in 30 KMs.
    Cheers
    Steve

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