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Thread: Diagnostic advice 1.4 petrol

  1. #26
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    Hi Jahn
    I'm not rushing to remove the head, I know that it leaves me with an un running engine.
    And I have consulted here, and in the UK forums and with a professional mechanic, not to mention scouring other web resources and forums for any inkling of what may cause the condition.
    I did have a false start with the squealing sound and worked thru eliminating it to find the source of the sound.
    What i have is equal compression on all cylinders, with all plugs showing moisture or wetness of some type. The even compression result leads to the assumption that the rings are good, valve seating is good. The high compression reading may be attributed to severe coking of the cylinders - equally. It has had a head gasket before some 80000k ago, maybe the head was shaved and a regular gasket installed?
    The question is how do you get 3/4 of a litre of oil to burn in an engine in about 30k for driving?
    So far sucking oil in thru valve guides is the only suggested cause. If there is a way to test this with the head on, that would be great.
    I don't doubt that there can be sensor errors, that contributed eg over fueling - buggering the cat. But I can't imagine a ecu problem that makes oil go into the cylinders so quick.
    Any diagnostic tips, gratefully received
    Cheers
    Steve

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  2. #27
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    Broken rings with severe blowby???
    Although your compression test suggests otherwise.
    If the head gasket is leaking, the cylinder compression can really only go into the water jacket due to the wet liner design, so it wouldn't be causing the crankcase to pressurise.
    When the head gasket blows, the head can be found to have a slight warp and it is possible for the top of one liner to become eroded at the point of the failure. The liner has an o-ring on the bottom and if that let go, you would be seeing coolant in the oil and just maybe some oil in the coolant.
    Are you sure the rest of the exhaust is not blocked further back? Was the catalyst fully intact but simply blocked?
    Why do you think it blocked to begin with? Excess oil being burnt? Overfuelled?
    The oxygen sensor and the manifold is a fairly common failure point on the early Berlingo, so it may be worth testing it to see at least if the heater circuit is still OK. If it's open circuit, the sensor will be junk.
    Last edited by David S; 26th January 2018 at 10:09 PM.

  3. #28
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    That's why you have to do a leak down test
    "We prefer to believe what we prefer to be true"
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Are you sure the rest of the exhaust is not blocked further back? Was the catalyst fully intact but simply blocked?
    Why do you think it blocked to begin with? Excess oil being burnt? Overfuelled?
    The oxygen sensor and the manifold is a fairly common failure point on the early Berlingo, so it may be worth testing it to see at least if the heater circuit is still OK. If it's open circuit, the sensor will be junk.
    Thanks for.your thoughts.
    The cat material was broken into several pieces at the top, the majority was in place and blocked hence the whistling. The rest of the exhaust appears clear, when we ran it parked on dirt the exhaust flow was visibility very strong.
    I don't understand your comment about the heater circuit?
    Steve

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    That's why you have to do a leak down test
    Hi JoBo,
    Can you expand on this? What would the leak down test show. A chemical test of radiator showed no combustion gas in coolant. Are you saying a leak down test may show combustion gases going into oil gallery?
    Steve

  6. #31
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    Default Hmmm oil burning ??

    Hi Steve,
    Putting my thinking cap on again
    While it is quite feasible for all the compression rings to be good and the bores but the oil rings worn/broken I would not think that is likely in my experience. Indeed normally only one oil ring would have failed and that spark plug will tell you which cylinder it is.
    My bet would be on the crankcase breather system. Not sure what that engine has but if the valve and hose system has been swapped or the PCV valve has failed or been disabled or whatever is letting the engine suck the fumes in without limite and there is a flow of air into the engine not limited it will use a lot of oil. That air/oil mix will upset the running at idle too. So check that and/or disconnect it to try it.

    Some engines have the ports for the breather cast into the manifolds and head, so there may not be hoses showing. I an not familiar with that engine. Anyone got a description of the crankcase breather system or what is the model number so I can search. In small engines on mowers etc there is a simple flap yalve to control the crankcase pressure and if that fails it can pump out the 0.6L of oil into the carby or on the deck in 5 minutes. People then think the engine has sh*t itself and throw it away when it can be fixed in 10 minutes, even with a bodgey part. If you have been burning a lot of oil before then that will be a cause for the blocked CAT. It is only designed to burn off the exhaust pollution not lots of oil, and the partial burning of the oil when cold will clog it for sure.

    Been my observation that old cars that should be smokey will not show that with a CAT after they warm up and people never know they are well worn out except when they first start from cold and the smoke rises behind.
    Jaahn
    PS been my experience that worn valve guides does not lead to excessive oil use. Just a cloud at the bottom of a hill or at traffic lights. But note my comment on CATs above. Is it possible that the oil was heavily contaminated with moisture and that moisture has been evaporated during the drive when it got hot so the oil level dropped 3/4 liter ?? Note I am just sitting at a keyboard here not looking at the real car
    Last edited by jaahn; 27th January 2018 at 08:13 AM.
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  7. #32
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    Thanks Jaahn,
    Fresh oil and new filter in engine as part of troubleshooting. Old oil looked fine, but low level(1/3). So may not be moisture in oil, and fuel in oil would have increased level. I guess.
    I did post previously about possibility of sucking oil in thru breather, if air cleaner blocked, yet to be tested.
    Looking thru repair manual and online, it doesn't seem to have PCV valve or EGR valve. Will investigate any other breathers when I see car, currently at workshop.
    Thanks
    Steve

  8. #33
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    Here is a shot of the exhaust, taken after cat clean out. Not great lighting to see quantity of smoke, but may help to troubleshoot.
    https://youtu.be/VBZBcbHXL1s

  9. #34
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    Does that car sound like that when it's not sick? Sounds to me like it's missing, one cylinder not firing properly?

    I've had that with a faulty injector. Of course, there can be other reasons.

    The leak down test is a basic test to tell you where the leakage might be (rings or valves/head). The compression test is good but not as subtle.

    Jaahn is most likely on the money.

    I'm not familiar with the engine either, is it a turbo?
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  10. #35
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    It's a 1.4 petrol, no turbo. No it normally runs fine. About 4 weeks ago before the problem, it was intermittently missing. We suspected coil pack / plugs? Mechanic put in a new set of plugs and issue disappeared. But in hindsight maybe it didn't go away and the new plugs may have masked it for a while. The mechanic didn't say if he noted anything odd with the plugs.
    Regarding the leak down test my understanding is that it is performed on each cylinder at top dead centre i.e. valves closed. So if there was an issue with valve seals / stems , it wouldn't appear in this test?
    Is there a way to assess valve seal/ stem sealing with head on?
    Will be asking for LDT.
    Thanks for your input
    Cheers
    Steve
    Last edited by Big Frog; 27th January 2018 at 12:20 PM.

  11. #36
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    The Berlingo has I think a 4 wire oxygen sensor. Two of them are for the heater circuit, which is required for the sensor to work. It's a common failure point on these sensors.

  12. #37
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    Diagnostic advice 1.4 petrol-screenshot_2018-01-27-11-30-21_temp.jpg
    Here is the engine bay.
    Arrowed is the connection between aircleaner on right, including the link to the rocker breather.
    I have run it now with the aircleaner (and breather) disconnected, no change.
    Also inside throttle body and aircleaner body no sign of oil mist etc.

  13. #38
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    Steve
    That looks like a PCV valve in the tappet cover with the hose going to it. However somewhere there is also a connection from the crankcase/tappet area into the inlet manifold on the engine side of the throttle butterfly. Cast into the head even ? The PCV system is a bit more complicated than just that hose to the air filter connection. The oily air flow can go either way too at different times. Check it out in detail.
    Some French engines also are connected to the fuel tank breather as a storage for the fumes. Any leaks at the tank inlet or the tank hoses or the wrong tank cap can cause problems.
    Jaahn
    Jaahn

  14. #39
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    Thanks Steve. The leak down would not show valve stem seal problems. In any case you'd be able to tell if they have gone hard/worn at start up in the morning and after a downhill run on trailing throttle - blue smoke.
    I assumed the coils were checked with the spark plugs. If not i'd check them and the injectors first. The engine sounds awful.
    Also assumed that the mechanic (or you) would have checked the O2 sensor. Check on utube -easy.
    After checking timing, leaks, PVC and carbon canister purge (like Jaahn pointed out) leaves the MAF. Be careful cleaning it with the correct spray and don't touch - don't ask me how i know. I bought a replacement for my car for about $30. However, i doubt it is the MAF in your case.
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    Here goes,It sounds to me that a leak test is always mandatory as part of finding the mechanical condition of the engine,then considering the large oil use are there any oil channels in the tappet cover [like 505 Douvrain engines] that are blocked with carbon stopping the crankcase breathing,as it sounds like crankcase pressure being above atmospheric instead of below which means pumping must be considered.
    Next test would vacuum gauge reading at inlet manifold @ idle- fast idle-then at at 4000 revs for a couple of minutes, there should be 18in of mercury at idle -21to 23 in at 2000 rpm then the same @4000 for couple of minutes- if the vac drops off to say 12in, then you have most of the last few years of carbon etc plus part of a cat blocking the muffler,this can bring on oil pumping, low power etc and a few other things which we won't worry about ATM.
    This is non intrusive and where I'd start.baz
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  16. #41
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    Looking at the layout for a similar vehicle, the crank vents internally to the cam/rocker cover and there is just that one pipe from the top of the cover. The small pipe going off to the distant right (left of image) will go to the vapour canister (plastic thing, near triangular cross-section), I think via a purge electrovalve. Maybe, try disconnecting the breather pipe, block the intake side and see what pressure you see at the pipe. Is it sucking air or spewing out oil into a temporary catch can?
    A tank vent blockage is also possible, but I don't know how it would cause such a sever problem as is experienced here. It would be a good idea to check all the vacuum and vent lines to see if oil has migrated there. It could give you an idea of where a fault may exist.

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    If oil is disappearing - i.e. up and out cylinders with cat clogged, o2 sensor oiled up and plug oily (also all the same symptoms for that mates 2006 Berlingo) - perhaps it is pressurising the crankcase and forcing the oil out. Look for clogged PCV and similar crankcase breather systems?

    Cheers
    Bryce
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    Thanks all,
    Good thoughts in there.Will digest these and Monday back to see a mechanic who hopefully do the leak down test and who is more across the OBD2 stuff.
    Cheers
    Steve

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    Spoke with the new mechanic this am.
    He decided immediately that it is the oil control rings, suggested sending engine to rebuilders. Seemed closed to any other possible cause.
    Im not feeling positive about them discovering anything useful

  20. #45
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    All the other and easily checked options have been completed? If they all check out then he could be right as the last and most expensive option.
    I'm iffy on rebuilds because to do it properly takes quite a bit of time and effort = cost. Many re-builders are quite slap dash which isn't so good for long term durability.
    A second hand low km engine is often a better option.

    If you have to go into the engine and you are handy with a spanner and torque wrench - on some engines it's possible to do by removing the pistons and crank from underneath. This is just a short cut solution and not a rebuild.
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    Hi
    Well the new mechanic is not being helpfull. possible might be correct but expensive ! Why would it suddenly wear out the oil rings ??
    I am still not convinced the crankcase breather system is not to blame but cannot say from my keyboard. Is there anyone with a workshop manual to check how it works.
    The PCV systems usually have two connections into the inlet. One before the throttle and one after, with the PCV valve controlling the flow between. Most mechanics do not understand how it works !! The connection after the throttle has strong suction on it and the valve is to control the flow of the air and fumes to a reasonable amount. The air flow through the engine is drawn from the connection before the throttle as it has been filtered. So it does not usually go into that connection and signs of oil in that air filter hose and throttle plate are not expected. Find the other connection, is my answer
    Jaahn

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    Look at his picture Jaahn. Large pipe from valve on rocker cover goes upstream of motorised throttle body and the thinner one to the manifold. The extension off to the left of his picture goes to the fuel vapour canister. There's no external pipe from the bottom of the crankcase from the parts diagrams I looked at, but there is venting from top to bottom of the block at each end.

    Dead Berlingos are easy to find and usually killed by the gearbox failing not the engine. Parts like the bearings have multiple grades you choose from, so it is really a lot easier to find a good used engine and it shouldn't cost that much.

    The oil rings and bores could even just be glazed. Very hard to know remotely, but a borescope down a plug hole might be a lot less expensive that pulling the engine down.

  23. #48
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    Ok - found this excerpt that covers emission control in the repair manual PDF (hidden in the appendix section, in the basement, in a locked filing cabinet, at the bottom of some broken stairs), it talks across multiple engines, mine is 1.4 Petrol, and I don't have the gadget on top of the exhaust manifold.
    Have uploaded in PDF format here http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=00915748589426691825

    file name is Emissions.pdf

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Dead Berlingos are easy to find and usually killed by the gearbox failing not the engine.
    Correct David, we just had the gearbox overhauled with new synchro on 2nd & 3rd, new input shaft bearing, thrust bearing, pressure plate, friction plate, flywheel skimmed etc etc.. That's the annoying part.

  25. #50
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    Hi
    I have perused that document. Not too helpful mainly general statements.

    I cannot argue from here and like always you form a theory and then test it on the car to see if it is good or wrong ?
    The engine sounds crap in the video, only running on several cyls and/or the whole mixture is way out. Or both ? There is excessive smoke out the exhaust so oil is going in and being burnt for sure. The oil is either going in with the air or it is coming up from the rings or a cracked piston or two. However the compression pressures might rule out the cracks.

    Hard to short out each plug with that coil arrangement I would look at the plugs again to see if they all are evenly dirty or one or two worse than the others.

    I would run the engine without the oil filler cap on and see what happens. There will not be much comes out if there is little blowby pressure. a steady pulsing out of gasses if it is a bit worn. a positive volume of fumes and mist if the engine is badly worn.

    Thinking outside the box, where is the oil supply to the valve gear. Is it possible the oil pressure is forcing it through into the inlet manifold or there is a crack in the head area allowing that to happen ??? Guessing here ! Or even the gasket is failing in a unusual manner allowing oil to be forced in to the cylinders as it sucks in..
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 29th January 2018 at 11:23 PM.

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