Australian Researchers working on Laser energy to unleash Power. Cars??
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Thread: Australian Researchers working on Laser energy to unleash Power. Cars??

  1. #1
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    Icon7 Australian Researchers working on Laser energy to unleash Power. Cars??

    How could this clean power be adapted to drive an all electric motorcar, the theory seems to have advanced and getting from a one part input of laser energy and creating a one hundred times power (energy) output without creating dangerous by products to the environment might move past the concept of small distributed Molten Salt Reactors that China is said to be developing as the World struggles to provide sufficient energy for the "advanced" mobile populations who long for cheap and sustainable (read Clean).new sources of electrical power. Lots of questions raised and possibilities?

    Discussion with plenty of comments at https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/12/...er-for-energy/

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    Actual paper and comments of the Scientists here. link at the bottom of the quote.

    In a paper in the scientific journal Laser and Particle Beams today, lead author Heinrich Hora from the University of New South Wales in Sydney and international colleagues argue that the path to hydrogen-boron fusion is now viable, and may be closer to realisation than other approaches, such as the deuterium-tritium fusion approach being pursued by U.S. National Ignition Facility (NIF) and the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor under construction in France.
    “I think this puts our approach ahead of all other fusion energy technologies,” said Hora, who predicted in the 1970s that fusing hydrogen and boron might be possible without the need for thermal equilibrium. Rather than heat fuel to the temperature of the Sun using massive, high-strength magnets to control superhot plasmas inside a doughnut-shaped toroidal chamber (as in NIF and ITER), hydrogen-boron fusion is achieved using two powerful lasers in rapid bursts, which apply precise non-linear forces to compress the nuclei together.
    Hydrogen-boron fusion produces no neutrons and, therefore, no radioactivity in its primary reaction. And unlike most other sources of power production – like coal, gas and nuclear, which rely on heating liquids like water to drive turbines – the energy generated by hydrogen-boron fusion converts directly into electricity. But the downside has always been that this needs much higher temperatures and densities – almost 3 billion degrees Celsius, or 200 times hotter than the core of the Sun.
    However, dramatic advances in laser technology are close to making the two-laser approach feasible, and a spate of recent experiments around the world indicate that an ‘avalanche’ fusion reaction could be triggered in the trillionth-of-a-second blast from a petawatt-scale laser pulse, whose fleeting bursts pack a quadrillion watts of power. If scientists could exploit this avalanche, Hora said, a breakthrough in proton-boron fusion was imminent.
    “It is a most exciting thing to see these reactions confirmed in recent experiments and simulations,” said Hora, an emeritus professor of theoretical physics at UNSW. “Not just because it proves some of my earlier theoretical work, but they have also measured the laser-initiated chain reaction to create one billion-fold higher energy output than predicted under thermal equilibrium conditions.”
    Together with 10 colleagues in six nations – including from Israel’s Soreq Nuclear Research Centre and the University of California, Berkeley – Hora describes a roadmap for the development of hydrogen-boron fusion based on his design, bringing together recent breakthroughs and detailing what further research is needed to make the reactor a reality.
    An Australian spin-off company, HB11 Energy, holds the patents for Hora’s process. “If the next few years of research don’t uncover any major engineering hurdles, we could have prototype reactor within a decade,” said Warren McKenzie, managing director of HB11.
    “From an engineering perspective, our approach will be a much simpler project because the fuels and waste are safe, the reactor won’t need a heat exchanger and steam turbine generator, and the lasers we need can be bought off the shelf,” he added.
    ###
    The paper: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...FB3ABAA993078C
    Sounds a bit far fetched at first glance, but has promise as a new clean approach to power generation using Physics - worth watching as with all these ideas, there are useable spin-offs and of course the final product could be the ultimate game changer if the transition to practical mobile power generation is scalable to personal transport.

    Ken

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    I have my doubts if this is technology suitable for mobile applications.

    Since Petawatt lasers are involved. And that is 10 ^15 watts.

    So where is the energy likely to come from on a mobile platform?

    However, I've been wrong before.
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    Yep scepticism is fine, but you never know in the technology race!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Yep scepticism is fine, but you never know in the technology race!
    In my mindseye I can't envisage two lasers of that capacity in mobile application.

    However for energy generation, if the claims are valid, the process would have promise.

    So I'm not sceptical of the process.

    Rather the deployment into
    "the transition to practical mobile power generation is scalable to personal transport"
    due to huge amount energy required to power the lasers.
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    Aneutronic p-B11 fusion has been discussed for a long while, especially by Dr Hora. It seems to be forever imminent as it depends on the laser.
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    The energy need not be constant. Just like the coil currently being used in ignition engines you can generate energy spikes powerful enough to work for a very short time. The problem is such a reaction is not self-sustaining like the currently used reactions in nuclear power plants where it is exactly the energy of those secondary neutrons that is used to keep the reaction going (that is the basics of chain reactions).

    So you need to create these pulses of very high energy somehow so you can power the laser. The key word here being energy. Which has to come from somewhere. And then, the idea is that you get back more energy. Now some of that energy you get will have to go back in to power the next laser cycle. By the looks of it quite a fair bit of that energy will have to go back in fact. It may be possible or become possible at some point, but it seems like a rather roundabout way of using a difficult to unlock source of energy.

    I said it before, we have a whole host of natural radioactive decay cycles we can use right away. The only problem is two problems actually. The population is ignorant and hysterical and the companies want back their profits on their investments in oil.

    There may be another problem in the wings. A motorised vehicle using energy form an on-board nuclear reactor does not turn on and off. Which is not a problem for the consumer, because the consumer can power their house from the car when they get back from work (the car is basically a - let's say - 100kW mobile generator - you could power a few houses in your street from one car), but then how does the power company make money?

    Add to that the fact that we can easily build reactors like that that would last 50 years before the run out of fuel, or say 25 years or whatever life span you like. Which basically means the car company won't be able to sell you another car for that time (why would you buy another one when you don't have an engine to break down or rebuild, you don't have a gearbox or any other gubbins to go wrong? - you'd only buy tyres, brake pads and the little air fresheners you hang off the rear view mirror).

    And that's why it's not gonna happen. We'll get (yet again) something of lesser quality and more complicamacated, just to allow for inbuilt profit making opportunities for the manufacturer.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    The energy need not be constant. Just like the coil currently being used in ignition engines you can generate energy spikes powerful enough to work for a very short time.

    For a 100% power of 10^15 watts. Calculate required duty cycle.

    Even at 0.01 percent .The power is not going to be available on a mobile platform.

    Until perpetual motion is perfected. (and then Aneutronic p-B11 fusion won't be required anyway)
    Last edited by robmac; 15th December 2017 at 07:39 PM.
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    Yeah, that is pretty much what I said. You call it duty cycle, I call it energy.

    You could create that kind of power by bashing a nail with a hammer if you could reduce the impact time enough.

    But the problem is that you can't reduce the nuclear reaction trigger time as much as you want. Which means you need to use more energy to create that kind of power in impulses of a given duration. I think this is where the system will make or break.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    The energy need not be constant. Just like the coil currently being used in ignition engines you can generate energy spikes powerful enough to work for a very short time. The problem is such a reaction is not self-sustaining like the currently used reactions in nuclear power plants where it is exactly the energy of those secondary neutrons that is used to keep the reaction going (that is the basics of chain reactions).

    So you need to create these pulses of very high energy somehow so you can power the laser. The key word here being energy. Which has to come from somewhere. And then, the idea is that you get back more energy. Now some of that energy you get will have to go back in to power the next laser cycle. By the looks of it quite a fair bit of that energy will have to go back in fact. It may be possible or become possible at some point, but it seems like a rather roundabout way of using a difficult to unlock source of energy.

    I said it before, we have a whole host of natural radioactive decay cycles we can use right away. The only problem is two problems actually. The population is ignorant and hysterical and the companies want back their profits on their investments in oil.

    There may be another problem in the wings. A motorised vehicle using energy form an on-board nuclear reactor does not turn on and off. Which is not a problem for the consumer, because the consumer can power their house from the car when they get back from work (the car is basically a - let's say - 100kW mobile generator - you could power a few houses in your street from one car), but then how does the power company make money?

    Add to that the fact that we can easily build reactors like that that would last 50 years before the run out of fuel, or say 25 years or whatever life span you like. Which basically means the car company won't be able to sell you another car for that time (why would you buy another one when you don't have an engine to break down or rebuild, you don't have a gearbox or any other gubbins to go wrong? - you'd only buy tyres, brake pads and the little air fresheners you hang off the rear view mirror).

    And that's why it's not gonna happen. We'll get (yet again) something of lesser quality and more complicamacated, just to allow for inbuilt profit making opportunities for the manufacturer.
    Assuming that the theoretical power available is electricity, all new electric vehicles would be designed to take a standard sized removable power pack which you purchase once and that is simply removed from your discarded vehicle and plugged into your next replacement vehicle. You could obtain a new model every year if you had the money, but your power pack should last you a driving lifetime. (In the absence of planned obsolescence , that is.)
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    The energy need not be constant. Just like the coil currently being used in ignition engines you can generate energy spikes powerful enough to work for a very short time. The problem is such a reaction is not self-sustaining like the currently used reactions in nuclear power plants where it is exactly the energy of those secondary neutrons that is used to keep the reaction going (that is the basics of chain reactions).

    So you need to create these pulses of very high energy somehow so you can power the laser. The key word here being energy. Which has to come from somewhere. And then, the idea is that you get back more energy. Now some of that energy you get will have to go back in to power the next laser cycle. By the looks of it quite a fair bit of that energy will have to go back in fact. It may be possible or become possible at some point, but it seems like a rather roundabout way of using a difficult to unlock source of energy.

    I said it before, we have a whole host of natural radioactive decay cycles we can use right away. The only problem is two problems actually. The population is ignorant and hysterical and the companies want back their profits on their investments in oil.

    There may be another problem in the wings. A motorised vehicle using energy form an on-board nuclear reactor does not turn on and off. Which is not a problem for the consumer, because the consumer can power their house from the car when they get back from work (the car is basically a - let's say - 100kW mobile generator - you could power a few houses in your street from one car), but then how does the power company make money?

    Add to that the fact that we can easily build reactors like that that would last 50 years before the run out of fuel, or say 25 years or whatever life span you like. Which basically means the car company won't be able to sell you another car for that time (why would you buy another one when you don't have an engine to break down or rebuild, you don't have a gearbox or any other gubbins to go wrong? - you'd only buy tyres, brake pads and the little air fresheners you hang off the rear view mirror).

    And that's why it's not gonna happen. We'll get (yet again) something of lesser quality and more complicamacated, just to allow for inbuilt profit making opportunities for the manufacturer.
    That seemed to be the basic problem that Nicola Tesla came up against when he was looking at the notion of supplying high energy electric power in a ground system that anyone in the World could plug into and extract the power. Not commercial according to Mr Morgan, when people could tap into it for free and so not worth investing the dollars to make it happen.

    May well be where all good concept but not "commercial" projects founder, but that is where government and taxation was supposed to step in "for the good of the collected humanity"or some such principle!!

    Sadly without some intervention, the concept of individual transport to roam and at least feel free without large other mass transport trapped individuals, will be our lot - a dismal future for us as we thought we knew ourselves.

    Ken

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